RE: You Know You Want To...Lockheed F104 "Starfighter"
Discussion
thewheelman said:
aeropilot said:
thewheelman said:
Justayellowbadge said:
thewheelman said:
No, he did buy it, he had it for a good few years, then the locals of Chipping Norton decided to cause problems over it, then planners got involved, & he was told to move it.
No he didn't, and it was only at his house for a number of weeks. XM172 was temporary hired for this publicity stunt and then returned to it's owners at Booker within a couple of weeks.
aeropilot said:
thewheelman said:
aeropilot said:
thewheelman said:
Justayellowbadge said:
thewheelman said:
No, he did buy it, he had it for a good few years, then the locals of Chipping Norton decided to cause problems over it, then planners got involved, & he was told to move it.
No he didn't, and it was only at his house for a number of weeks. XM172 was temporary hired for this publicity stunt and then returned to it's owners at Booker within a couple of weeks.
rockymount said:
Think World War Two Fighter Ace Erich Hartmann might have had a point .....
Actually if you read Hartmann's biography, you find that, contry to urban myth, he never said that the GAF shouldn't buy the 'Hooter', just that it shouldn't have got it when it did. His recommendation was that it should transition to something in between the F-86/F-84 that it was then using before getting the F-104 at a later date.Interestingly the German Marineflieger didn't want the F-104 either, it wanted to buy the Buccaneer
but politics dictated it had to have the F-104 which was hardly suitable for the role.The Hypno-Toad said:
Nearly right.
Lockheed bribing Ministers and Air Marshals around the world helped result in the cancellation of the Saunders-Roe dual fuel intercept fighter.
There was a lot more to it than that.Lockheed bribing Ministers and Air Marshals around the world helped result in the cancellation of the Saunders-Roe dual fuel intercept fighter.
In 1958 NATO put out a requirement for a Mach 2 capable fighter (and later, a requirement for it to have Air to Ground capability), which the Spams were eager to fill. At that time the RAF had decided against the SR a/c on technical (and operational) grounds. The Govt of the day didn't wish to see the SR fail because it wanted to maintain employment on the Isle of Wight. It therefore told Bonn (and presumably this filtered down to the Cloggies and the Italians) that no development of the Lightning would be forthcoming - a total lie given that the F6 would be in service within 6 years (followed later by the F2A) and that, 2 years later, the F5x series would be produced for both Oman and Saudi (all of which were far more capable in the AG role than the F104 would ever be).
thewheelman said:
As posted, the pic of it, i drove past it many times over a period of years. I couldn't care less what make of plane it is. I know where he lives as it's less than a 5 minute walk from my dad's house. So clearly your facts are incorrect. Just deal with it.
Your picture shows XR755 which is an F.6, in its current location in Cornwall in the garden of one Ernie Marshall who owns it. I'm not sure that Clarkson has ever lived in that area. You can see it on google maps here. You can see the white fronted three gabled house behind it in the aerial photo. As far as I'm aware it has been there pretty much since it was retired.Edited by tank slapper on Friday 14th October 23:31
thewheelman said:
aeropilot said:
thewheelman said:
aeropilot said:
thewheelman said:
Justayellowbadge said:
thewheelman said:
No, he did buy it, he had it for a good few years, then the locals of Chipping Norton decided to cause problems over it, then planners got involved, & he was told to move it.
No he didn't, and it was only at his house for a number of weeks. XM172 was temporary hired for this publicity stunt and then returned to it's owners at Booker within a couple of weeks.
rockymount said:
Good move Riggers, these ex UK squadron/pilot types are bl
dy intelligent and extremely sharp 
as this interchange between a short-tempered Frankfurt Airport Controller and British Airways 747 Pilot clearly shows 
Speedbird 206: " Frankfurt , Speedbird 206! Clear of active runway."
Ground: "Speedbird 206. Taxi to gate Alpha One-Seven."
The BA 747 pulled onto the main taxiway and slowed to a stop.
Ground: "Speedbird, do you not know where you are going?"
Speedbird 206: "Stand by, Ground, I'm looking up our gate location now."
Ground (with quite arrogant impatience): "Speedbird 206, have you not been to Frankfurt before?"
Speedbird 206 (coolly): "Yes, twice in 1944, but it was dark, -- And I didn't land."
The true story is a wee bit different. I remember seeing it recorded in the METS (Multi-Engined [Pilot] Training School) 'Line Book' at RAF Finningley.dy intelligent and extremely sharp as this interchange between a short-tempered Frankfurt Airport Controller and British Airways 747 Pilot clearly shows Speedbird 206: " Frankfurt , Speedbird 206! Clear of active runway."
Ground: "Speedbird 206. Taxi to gate Alpha One-Seven."
The BA 747 pulled onto the main taxiway and slowed to a stop.
Ground: "Speedbird, do you not know where you are going?"
Speedbird 206: "Stand by, Ground, I'm looking up our gate location now."
Ground (with quite arrogant impatience): "Speedbird 206, have you not been to Frankfurt before?"
Speedbird 206 (coolly): "Yes, twice in 1944, but it was dark, -- And I didn't land."
Firstly the airport in question was Dusseldorf and not Frankfurt. Secondly, the incident occurred in the early 70's while Dusseldorf was being expanded and concerned a BEA a/c (pre British Airways) - a Trident.
Upon landing the BEA Captain was asked if he would like a 'Follow Me' vehicle since a number of taxyways were closed/being dug up, to which he replied (somewhat harshly) in the negative.
He subsequently got lost in the revised taxy pattern and when asked "Have you been to Dusseldorf before?" replied with the immortal line: "Yes. Twice in 1944, but I didn't stop!"
aeropilot said:
rockymount said:
Think World War Two Fighter Ace Erich Hartmann might have had a point .....
Actually if you read Hartmann's biography, you find that, contry to urban myth, he never said that the GAF shouldn't buy the 'Hooter', just that it shouldn't have got it when it did. His recommendation was that it should transition to something in between the F-86/F-84 that it was then using before getting the F-104 at a later date.Interestingly the German Marineflieger didn't want the F-104 either, it wanted to buy the Buccaneer
but politics dictated it had to have the F-104 which was hardly suitable for the role.Certainly tallies up with a “When RAF Pilots Flew the F-104 Forum” comment here at http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-459768.h...
i.e.
Fugazi1000 5th Aug 2011, 12:41
I remember my father (now deceased) making a joke when we were stationed in RAFG Wildenrath in the early eighties. It was only later that I 'got it'.
Q: How do you get yourself a Starfighter?
A: Buy a field in Germany and wait.
and an earlier comment on the same forum, I thought was rather telling ;
exMudmover 5th Aug 2011, 09:15
Quote from "Flying Freestyle" by Jerry Pook:
"The Starfighter was beautiful to fly, smooth and sophisticated, supremely fast and powerful - if you took liberties with it you knew it would kill you in an instant."
rumbletum said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Cq7hf4ylvY&fea...
A great scene from a great film - 'The Right Stuff'.
I watched that last night. It's actually the wrong aircraft, should be this one:A great scene from a great film - 'The Right Stuff'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_NF-104A
Can't complain though - that Starfighter looks incredible in the film.
Since it's on topic - here are a few pics for a recent museum visit.
The sectioned wing had a protective cover over the l/e - quite sharp. The black tube that forms the flap pivot carried the bleed air for the blown flaps, and at a certain angle of droop, slots are exposed that direct air over the flap to keep the boundary layer attached. I was fascinated by that wing section exhibit - simple but effective.
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
rockymount said:
Good move Riggers, these ex UK squadron/pilot types are bldy intelligent and extremely sharp as this interchange between a short-tempered Frankfurt Airport Controller and British Airways 747 Pilot clearly shows
Speedbird 206: " Frankfurt , Speedbird 206! Clear of active runway."
Ground: "Speedbird 206. Taxi to gate Alpha One-Seven."
The BA 747 pulled onto the main taxiway and slowed to a stop.
Ground: "Speedbird, do you not know where you are going?"
Speedbird 206: "Stand by, Ground, I'm looking up our gate location now."
Ground (with quite arrogant impatience): "Speedbird 206, have you not been to Frankfurt before?"
Speedbird 206 (coolly): "Yes, twice in 1944, but it was dark, -- And I didn't land."
The true story is a wee bit different. I remember seeing it recorded in the METS (Multi-Engined [Pilot] Training School) 'Line Book' at RAF Finningley.dy intelligent and extremely sharp as this interchange between a short-tempered Frankfurt Airport Controller and British Airways 747 Pilot clearly shows Speedbird 206: " Frankfurt , Speedbird 206! Clear of active runway."
Ground: "Speedbird 206. Taxi to gate Alpha One-Seven."
The BA 747 pulled onto the main taxiway and slowed to a stop.
Ground: "Speedbird, do you not know where you are going?"
Speedbird 206: "Stand by, Ground, I'm looking up our gate location now."
Ground (with quite arrogant impatience): "Speedbird 206, have you not been to Frankfurt before?"
Speedbird 206 (coolly): "Yes, twice in 1944, but it was dark, -- And I didn't land."
Firstly the airport in question was Dusseldorf and not Frankfurt. Secondly, the incident occurred in the early 70's while Dusseldorf was being expanded and concerned a BEA a/c (pre British Airways) - a Trident.
Upon landing the BEA Captain was asked if he would like a 'Follow Me' vehicle since a number of taxyways were closed/being dug up, to which he replied (somewhat harshly) in the negative.
He subsequently got lost in the revised taxy pattern and when asked "Have you been to Dusseldorf before?" replied with the immortal line: "Yes. Twice in 1944, but I didn't stop!"
types are bldy intelligent and extremely sharp So in true Riggers fashion;rockymount :shrugs shoulders, happily bows to superior knowledge:
rockymount said:
Thanks Ginetta G15 Girl, as I said these ex UK squadron/pilot - and now Ginetta G15 Girly types
YW types Actually I wouldn't say I'm any different from (or additive to) the first group, being, as I am, ex Twin-Winged Master Race (ex RAF Pilot).
As it happens I checked the story with the Father of a very good friend of mine who is a BA Captain (his father was a BEA Trident Captain and, later, BA Training Captain) and he confirmed the story as being true.
Back to F104s...
I was 'holding' at RAF Bruggen in the mid 80's on 17(F)Sqn (whilst they still had Jaguars). The day in question was RED/RED (ie 200' cloudbase, 500m vis).
A Cloggie 104 calls up with a HYD problem (bear in mind that at this time Bruggen was an MDA (Master Diversionary Aerodrome) within the 'Clutch' airfields.
We are sitting in the PBF (Pilots' Briefing Facility - a 'hardened' building), when we hear: "STATE TWO! STATE TWO! STATE TWO! DUTCH F104 AIRCRAFT, HYDRAULICS FAILURE FOR RUNWAY 27".
Thinking: 'This'll be good,' we all pile outside to watch. The 17F 'Hard' at that time was on the North side of the R/W at the Eastern end.
We hear the whistle of the 104's J79, bearing in mind the claggy day, followed by the Cloggie tearing past us having failed to engage the Approach End RHAG (arrestor cable).
An old Sqn 'Hand' comments: "He's dead then!" (Bear in mind that a flapless F104 will be touching down at somewhere around 240 kts).
About 10 or so minutes later we hear the Cloggie taxi-ing back.
The same 'Hand' comments: "Lockheed must have made good brakes then."
We got pished with the Dutchman that night. As I recall he seemed to be able to quaff ENORMOUS quantities of Grolsch!
I was 'holding' at RAF Bruggen in the mid 80's on 17(F)Sqn (whilst they still had Jaguars). The day in question was RED/RED (ie 200' cloudbase, 500m vis).
A Cloggie 104 calls up with a HYD problem (bear in mind that at this time Bruggen was an MDA (Master Diversionary Aerodrome) within the 'Clutch' airfields.
We are sitting in the PBF (Pilots' Briefing Facility - a 'hardened' building), when we hear: "STATE TWO! STATE TWO! STATE TWO! DUTCH F104 AIRCRAFT, HYDRAULICS FAILURE FOR RUNWAY 27".
Thinking: 'This'll be good,' we all pile outside to watch. The 17F 'Hard' at that time was on the North side of the R/W at the Eastern end.
We hear the whistle of the 104's J79, bearing in mind the claggy day, followed by the Cloggie tearing past us having failed to engage the Approach End RHAG (arrestor cable).
An old Sqn 'Hand' comments: "He's dead then!" (Bear in mind that a flapless F104 will be touching down at somewhere around 240 kts).
About 10 or so minutes later we hear the Cloggie taxi-ing back.
The same 'Hand' comments: "Lockheed must have made good brakes then."
We got pished with the Dutchman that night. As I recall he seemed to be able to quaff ENORMOUS quantities of Grolsch!
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
Back to F104s...
I was 'holding' at RAF Bruggen in the mid 80's on 17(F)Sqn (whilst they still had Jaguars). The day in question was RED/RED (ie 200' cloudbase, 500m vis).
A Cloggie 104 calls up with a HYD problem (bear in mind that at this time Bruggen was an MDA (Master Diversionary Aerodrome) within the 'Clutch' airfields.
We are sitting in the PBF (Pilots' Briefing Facility - a 'hardened' building), when we hear: "STATE TWO! STATE TWO! STATE TWO! DUTCH F104 AIRCRAFT, HYDRAULICS FAILURE FOR RUNWAY 27".
Thinking: 'This'll be good,' we all pile outside to watch. The 17F 'Hard' at that time was on the North side of the R/W at the Eastern end.
We hear the whistle of the 104's J79, bearing in mind the claggy day, followed by the Cloggie tearing past us having failed to engage the Approach End RHAG (arrestor cable).
An old Sqn 'Hand' comments: "He's dead then!" (Bear in mind that a flapless F104 will be touching down at somewhere around 240 kts).
About 10 or so minutes later we hear the Cloggie taxi-ing back.
The same 'Hand' comments: "Lockheed must have made good brakes then."
We got pished with the Dutchman that night. As I recall he seemed to be able to quaff ENORMOUS quantities of Grolsch!
Don’t blame him I was 'holding' at RAF Bruggen in the mid 80's on 17(F)Sqn (whilst they still had Jaguars). The day in question was RED/RED (ie 200' cloudbase, 500m vis).
A Cloggie 104 calls up with a HYD problem (bear in mind that at this time Bruggen was an MDA (Master Diversionary Aerodrome) within the 'Clutch' airfields.
We are sitting in the PBF (Pilots' Briefing Facility - a 'hardened' building), when we hear: "STATE TWO! STATE TWO! STATE TWO! DUTCH F104 AIRCRAFT, HYDRAULICS FAILURE FOR RUNWAY 27".
Thinking: 'This'll be good,' we all pile outside to watch. The 17F 'Hard' at that time was on the North side of the R/W at the Eastern end.
We hear the whistle of the 104's J79, bearing in mind the claggy day, followed by the Cloggie tearing past us having failed to engage the Approach End RHAG (arrestor cable).
An old Sqn 'Hand' comments: "He's dead then!" (Bear in mind that a flapless F104 will be touching down at somewhere around 240 kts).
About 10 or so minutes later we hear the Cloggie taxi-ing back.
The same 'Hand' comments: "Lockheed must have made good brakes then."
We got pished with the Dutchman that night. As I recall he seemed to be able to quaff ENORMOUS quantities of Grolsch!
I too would be quaffing ENORMOUS quantities of Grolsch 
if I’d failed to engage the Approach End RHAG 
He obviously had vast amounts of Dutch courage 
Did he change his cac’s before he started quaffing ? Pleased to hear you lot joined him in his helplessly inebriated state 
Hope you didn't have to do any sorties in your Twin-Winged Jaguar's 
early the next morning Ginetta G15 Girl
- that's the cloudbase at 9' by the way p.s. off to bed now for some shut eye - will probably be dreaming about Starfighters and ex Angels quaffing
Edited by rockymount on Saturday 15th October 02:43
In the 1950's I lived in a small town in the Mojave Desert (Pearblossom) near Edwards Air Force Base, where they developed the F-104. I was 9 or 10 at the time and my next door neighbor was a test pilot for Gruman. His mates would occasionally buzz the house (the town had 120 people on a remote hilltop) and one day I ran over and told him that a rocket ship had just flown over! Everyone laughed at me except him. Two years later the F-104 went public-my all time favorite airplane (excepy maybe the Blackbird, which I saw fly many times on Wednesdays out of Palmdale in the 1970's and 80's).
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