Red Arrows Incident
Discussion
dr_gn said:
Do you use a torque wrench every time you tighten your car wheel nuts?
If the answer is "no", how many times has this caused a fatal accident?
Wowsers.... How many times had these seats been torqued up incorrectly before there was a fatal accident? A lot, according to the report. Just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it wont.If the answer is "no", how many times has this caused a fatal accident?
For someone who works in aerospace, your lack of standards is actually scary.
Very poor design IMHO.
If the bolt torque is that critical then M-B should make it very clear that it is ESSENTIAL that it is not overtorqued.
In the short term (until an improved design is available) it should be checked and maybe replaced regularly to minimise risk.
Better still MB should be designing a better solution and retro-fitting it ASAP.
Killing people with a safety device isn't that smart a marketing message.
If the bolt torque is that critical then M-B should make it very clear that it is ESSENTIAL that it is not overtorqued.
In the short term (until an improved design is available) it should be checked and maybe replaced regularly to minimise risk.
Better still MB should be designing a better solution and retro-fitting it ASAP.
Killing people with a safety device isn't that smart a marketing message.
RobGT81 said:
Can the seat pan firing hardly be partially pulled without it firing the seat? Hard to imagine but seems to be what they are implying?
Surely if a bolt is over torqued then that is a maintenance error? If MB supply a torque then I don't see how its their fault when it has been "over tightened"
Yes, a seat pan firing handle can be partially pulled without the ejection sequence initiating. When a seat is serviced it undergoes pull off checks, this means checking the amount of force required to remove the seat pan handle into the firing position. Surely if a bolt is over torqued then that is a maintenance error? If MB supply a torque then I don't see how its their fault when it has been "over tightened"
steve j said:
After fitting hundreds of seats, I do not believe for one moment that the seat pan firing handle was at fault. I`ve just seen the news and it showed a partially pulled handle with the safety pin through the handle and not in the housing. When the seat is fitted, it is checked three times ! Then every time a pilot crews in, the pins are checked again. I recall sabotage on a seat when I served on Phantoms and I suspect in this case.
Sabotage!? really? Why would anyone want to sabotage a colleague's seat in a manner that has (in this case) caused the loss of life?
Edited by y2blade on Thursday 30th January 10:12
RobGT81 said:
dr_gn said:
Do you use a torque wrench every time you tighten your car wheel nuts?
If the answer is "no", how many times has this caused a fatal accident?
Wowsers.... How many times had these seats been torqued up incorrectly before there was a fatal accident? A lot, according to the report. Just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it wont.If the answer is "no", how many times has this caused a fatal accident?
For someone who works in aerospace, your lack of standards is actually scary.
RobGT81 said:
Surely any bolt incorrectly torqued can be fatal.
Is complete rubbish.There are hundreds if not thousands of components on machines of all types secured by bolts with specified torque figures which, if they failed through mis-torquing, would pose no risk to life whatsoever.
y2blade said:
Sabotage!? really?
Why would anyone want to sabotage a colleague's seat in a manner that has (in this case) caused the loss of life?
It happened in the Falklands on a Mk7 seat fitted to Phantoms ! Initiating cables were cut, this would cause the seat to fail completely. The reason for doing it ? Well it appeared the guilty party had serious problems and was not in a reasonable state of mind. Why would anyone want to sabotage a colleague's seat in a manner that has (in this case) caused the loss of life?
Edited by y2blade on Thursday 30th January 10:12
dr_gn said:
There are hundreds if not thousands of components on machines of all types secured by bolts with specified torque figures which, if they failed through mis-torquing, would pose no risk to life whatsoever.
I would never gamble with an aircraft and aircrews lives that not doing a bolt up properly won't pose any kind of risk. That's a very dangerous attitude to take.RobGT81 said:
dr_gn said:
There are hundreds if not thousands of components on machines of all types secured by bolts with specified torque figures which, if they failed through mis-torquing, would pose no risk to life whatsoever.
I would never gamble with an aircraft and aircrews lives that not doing a bolt up properly won't pose any kind of risk. That's a very dangerous attitude to take.dr_gn said:
That's a completely different statement from saying "any bolt incorrectly torqued can be fatal".
You're saying, if the bolts holding the electric window motor in the door of the car are loose, that it won't kill me?I don't know man. That can't be right. I heard anything incorrectly done up on a machine is fatal.
Munter said:
dr_gn said:
That's a completely different statement from saying "any bolt incorrectly torqued can be fatal".
You're saying, if the bolts holding the electric window motor in the door of the car are loose, that it won't kill me?I don't know man. That can't be right. I heard anything incorrectly done up on a machine is fatal.
dr_gn said:
Yeah, I once guessed the tightness of a bolt holding the plastic h/t lead trim on my car (6 Nm IIRC). It was touch and go, but I survived.
If the bolt works loose and ends up jamming your throttle open it might make things interesting. But bolts jamming controls never happens, so you will be fine 
RobGT81 said:
dr_gn said:
Yeah, I once guessed the tightness of a bolt holding the plastic h/t lead trim on my car (6 Nm IIRC). It was touch and go, but I survived.
If the bolt works loose and ends up jamming your throttle open it might make things interesting. But bolts jamming controls never happens, so you will be fine “An ejector seat firm has admitted breaching health and safety laws over the death of a Red Arrows pilot.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42773834
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42773834
BlackLabel said:
“An ejector seat firm has admitted breaching health and safety laws over the death of a Red Arrows pilot.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42773834
I'd like a bit more detail in that article.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42773834
Eric Mc said:
BlackLabel said:
“An ejector seat firm has admitted breaching health and safety laws over the death of a Red Arrows pilot.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42773834
I'd like a bit more detail in that article.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42773834
Crossflow Kid said:
It's the BBC. You're lucky they haven't shown a photo of the BBMF Lancaster.
Forces.net (I searched for the story on Google news) has the full statementhttps://www.forces.net/news/breaking-ejector-seat-...
The only technical bit is
It should be noted that this was an isolated failure relating to the tightening of a nut during maintenance procedures conducted by RAF Aerobatic Team (RAFAT) mechanics.
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