Red Arrows Incident

[IrrElephant]

Terrible terrible news. I hope this isn't the beginning of the end for the arrows.

[bigbubba]

Well, it isn't a just reason for it to be the end but I am sure there are people that would like to use this as an excuse to push for it.

In a similar vein to the fact that recent incidents involving Indy Car, Moto GP and the M5 do not justify their end, this does not justify the end of the Arrows.

After all, they are the face of the RAF and very good for public relations abroad.

I can see though a big shake up IF it is proven that the aircraft was itself a contributory factor in both recent deaths.

It will also be very interesting to see if today's incident could be somehow linked to the grounding of the aircraft for concerns over the ejection seat recently.

In the short term though, I think we should all consider the two pilots the Arrows have lost and not what might be.

RIP Jon & Today's Pilot.

[Shar2]

This is really bad news. RIP and my thoughts go out to the family and friends.

IIRC the Hawks use Mk10 seats, so to the poster above they do have leg straps.

Edited by Shar2 on Tuesday 8th November 19:09

[dr_gn]

Shar2 said:

This is really bad news. RIP and my thoughts go out to the family and friends.

+1

Shar2 said:

IIRC the Hawks use Mk10 seats, so to the poster above they do have leg straps.

What would be the consequences be of a zero-zero MDC failure? Would the seat have enough remaining energy - after breaking the canopy - to get to a height where the parachute would deploy?

[LukeSi]

R.I.P to the pilot.

Wonder what it will mean for the reds, two casualties in one year. I hope they aren't disbanded. If anything they should be upgraded to the Eurofighter. There will be some available soon.

[PaulG40]

Yes, it will have enough energy to get to safe height.

IIRC the picture shows the aircraft on the flight line, post or pre shutdown. Sounds like seat pan pin wasn't in for what ever reason, but that's purely speculating sorry.

I hope this wasn't a technical issue, since that'll be more bad news for the reds engineering wise, not that I'm saying pilot error or otherwise, I think you know how I mean to come across.

Sad sad day, we mourn the loss of another brave soul!

[Shar2]

dr_gn said:

Shar2 said:

This is really bad news. RIP and my thoughts go out to the family and friends.

+1

Shar2 said:

IIRC the Hawks use Mk10 seats, so to the poster above they do have leg straps.

What would be the consequences be of a zero-zero MDC failure? Would the seat have enough remaining energy - after breaking the canopy - to get to a height where the parachute would deploy?

The seat would go through the canopy like it wasn't there anyway. The primary cartridge fires first, followed by two face fired charges. This would get you through the canopy. After 6 feet of movement the rocket pack will fire sending the pilot the rest of the way to around 300ft where normally the drogue chutes would deploy followed by the main chute and the seat would fall away. I can't think how this ejection was initiated or why the normal sequence didn't continue to a safe conclusion for the pilot.

[Rach*]

utterly devastating news, RIP Red

[dr_gn]

Shar2 said:

dr_gn said:

Shar2 said:

This is really bad news. RIP and my thoughts go out to the family and friends.

+1

Shar2 said:

IIRC the Hawks use Mk10 seats, so to the poster above they do have leg straps.

What would be the consequences be of a zero-zero MDC failure? Would the seat have enough remaining energy - after breaking the canopy - to get to a height where the parachute would deploy?

The seat would go through the canopy like it wasn't there anyway. The primary cartridge fires first, followed by two face fired charges. This would get you through the canopy. After 6 feet of movement the rocket pack will fire sending the pilot the rest of the way to around 300ft where normally the drogue chutes would deploy followed by the main chute and the seat would fall away. I can't think how this ejection was initiated or why the normal sequence didn't continue to a safe conclusion for the pilot.

I seem to remember an incident with a Jet Provost where a safety pin had been left off the disarmed seat: it fell out while inverted, breaking the glass but the person survived. Don't know whether that seat was fitted with a spike to shatter the glass or not, but I was always surprised that the canopy didn't stop the seat.

[Shar2]

dr_gn said:

I seem to remember an incident with a Jet Provost where a safety pin had been left off the disarmed seat: it fell out while inverted, breaking the glass but the person survived. Don't know whether that seat was fitted with a spike to shatter the glass or not, but I was always surprised that the canopy didn't stop the seat.

Before the days of MDC ejection seats used to have a pair of horns on the headbox to break through the canopy. Perspex isn't that strong and the seats in the Jet Provosts are quite heavy, certainly a lot heavier than a Mk10. Several times we nearly dropped the Mk9's fitted to the Harrier T-4N's

[Mojocvh]

http://www.martin-baker.com/products/Ejection-Seat...

Single pin for the seat handle.

Lets see what the board come up with on this one, at least they have the aircraft this time, unlike the Harrier that fired it's pilot out and flew onwards out to sea...


Remember the old days of pinning up the navigators seat in a Canberra PR9, can't remember whether it was one handful of pins or two offhand, but certainly remember the procedure for working your way "backwards" to pin it up whilst kneeling on the seatpan didn't like that very much to be honest.

Edited by Mojocvh on Tuesday 8th November 20:38

[Streps]

The pilot has been named as Flight Lieutenant Sean Cunningham
Red 5 RIP.

[zetec]

RIP Red 5

One wonders if he was a Star Wars fan, what a seat if he was.

[Pupp]

There's clearly a few contributors with relevant tech knowledge of these systems here; can you tell me something of how the seats are 'armed' and 'disarmed' - reason I ask is I once had the chance to clamber into the seat in a Tornado at Cottesmore as part of a work goodwill visit. We were told (in pretty convincing terms) that the aircraft was operational and ready for the off, and on no account to touch anything yellow... we were also very closely supervised getting in and out etc (as you'd properly expect). Could the seat *really* have been inadvertently triggered by a clumsy civvie in such circumstances?

Sounds like a horrendous incident; can't imagine how the nearest and dearest must be feeling

[AyBee]

RIP

[Hard-Drive]

Oh no. Really hope too that this is not the beginning of the end. Feel so sorry for the rest of the team and families, they would not have been expecting a year like this when they signed up for a job where you don't get shot at.

RIP to both of them, the country will always be proud of them.

[Mutley]

I feel for Sean Cunningham's family and friends, this is year too much for the Reds. Spare a thought for his Squadron mates who have lost 2 team mates this year, and right now, I feel for Dr Emma Egging, all the thoughts and memories and emotions must surely be coming back.

My thoughts go to the Red Arrows family tonight

[PaulG40]

Pupp,

Well on a tonka, no. But it's just extra safety. The seat pan pin would be physically in the way of you pull the black and yellow handle between your legs but would you want to take that chance?

Then there's the canopy mdc pins, and canopy jettison pin, plus the cross drive shaft etc.

On a harrier though, you could have it in safe for maintenance (all pins fitted) or safe for parking, seat pan pin not fitted but seat handle in safe.

[kiteless]

MonkeyHanger said:

Another sad day for the Reds & their families.

Let's hope 2012 brings them happier times.

Amen to that.

[shouldbworking]

RIP to the pilot and condolences to those who knew them.

One wonders if this will lead to a repeat of the situation earlier this year when the hawk fleet was grounded with ejector seat problems. I have no idea what the potential issue was then, it could be completely unrelated to todays incident.