What happened to Air France Flight 447
Discussion
From a passenger point of view, would they have known what was going on or, like the chief pilot, only realise the gravity of the situation 40 seconds before impact? Excuse the ignorance, that article made for sobering reading and I just wondered what the poor passengers and crew must have been going through.
Dogwatch said:
Don't understand why (and we'll possibly never know) the Captain gave command to the least experienced junior. Surely a recipe for trouble in any situation on land, sea or air as the experienced can be overruled by the 'think they know it'?
The "command" always remains with the Captain, whether he is on break or not. The junior chap will have been in the Captain's seat while he was on his break. The most experienced of the two first officers would have been in charge on the flight deck at that point irrespective of the seat he was sitting in.JW911 said:
Dogwatch said:
Don't understand why (and we'll possibly never know) the Captain gave command to the least experienced junior. Surely a recipe for trouble in any situation on land, sea or air as the experienced can be overruled by the 'think they know it'?
The "command" always remains with the Captain, whether he is on break or not. The junior chap will have been in the Captain's seat while he was on his break. The most experienced of the two first officers would have been in charge on the flight deck at that point irrespective of the seat he was sitting in.It depends on the operator. Some airlines require one of the pilots in the flight deck to be "in Command" even if it's an F/O, some are happy to have the commander down the back asleep.
Generally most F/Os aren't actually left hand seat qualified (again it depends on the airline). The pilot flying would in that case, simply be the F/O who happened to be in the right hand seat. As you can't be 'pilot flying' if you're in a seat you're not qualified for.
Edited by el stovey on Thursday 8th December 20:12
My experience of the French in business makes it easy to understand how this terrible situation could arise.
I have found the French to be incredibly stubborn and not receptive to basic common sense solutions particularly in stress situations. The pilot Bonin did exactly the opposite of what he should have done by pulling the stick back and then having made his irrational decision, stayed with it despite all the evidence from working instrumentation until very close to the end. If you want something f
d up, put the French in charge.
I have found the French to be incredibly stubborn and not receptive to basic common sense solutions particularly in stress situations. The pilot Bonin did exactly the opposite of what he should have done by pulling the stick back and then having made his irrational decision, stayed with it despite all the evidence from working instrumentation until very close to the end. If you want something f
d up, put the French in charge.el stovey said:
Generally most F/Os aren't actually left hand seat qualified (again it depends on the airline). The pilot flying would in that case, simply be the F/O who happened to be in the right hand seat. As you can't be 'pilot flying' if you're in a seat you're not qualified for.
So your saying they get a different licence sorta thing just to sit the other side of the cab? Apart from the throttles being on the other side, does it really make much difference? I'd have thought it was all standardised? Hooli said:
el stovey said:
Generally most F/Os aren't actually left hand seat qualified (again it depends on the airline). The pilot flying would in that case, simply be the F/O who happened to be in the right hand seat. As you can't be 'pilot flying' if you're in a seat you're not qualified for.
So your saying they get a different licence sorta thing just to sit the other side of the cab? Apart from the throttles being on the other side, does it really make much difference? I'd have thought it was all standardised? Most airlines don't left hand seat check first officers. Many airlines just operate two pilots e.g. easy jet, so there's no need for long haul, three crew operations and the musical chairs during the flight that three crew flights cause.
Some long haul operations might be with four pilots or two complete sets of crews. There's all kinds of combinations really depending on the airline and the length of flight, length of stay down route etc.
Some long haul airlines even have cruise pilots who are only allowed to operate the aircraft up in the cruise and aren't allowed to handle the controls below 10,000ft. They only ever fly the plane in the simulator and sit there hoping the more senior pilots die so they can get promoted.
A lex said:
I think the main focus now should be 'how' did AF get in to a situation where their crew can not fly an aircraft with a U/S ASI.
You seem to forget that on a modern aircraft the pitot static system feeds data to all sorts of different systems, so it may well not just be the asi that's not reacting or reading in an expected manner.Mr Pointy said:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/print-this/what-re...
Terrifying. A perfectly serviceable aircraft flown into the sea & none of the pilots knew what was going on.
I'm not going to beat about the bush, and I'll probably take some heat for my supposedly outspoken comments.Terrifying. A perfectly serviceable aircraft flown into the sea & none of the pilots knew what was going on.
The pilots porked it, no getting around it, they made too many unforgivable mistakes.
The passengers would have had a better chance of surviving if an amateur PPL had the controls.
One of the pilots didn't even recognize St Elmo's fire FFS!
Can't believe that supposedly professional pilots can be that poor.
They didn't even have the radar dialled in!
Edited by SirBlade on Thursday 8th December 21:37
el stovey said:
Perfectly serviceable?
Sounds like some serious design faults if a couple of experienced pilots weren't able to easily understand what was going on? Presumably if you design an aircraft and fill it with men women and children, you would want it to be very straight forward to operate, not one where two/three pilots could "fly it into the sea" like that.
Presumably there were some other factors to consider?
The aircraft was perfectly serviceable. AP had disengaged as pitot's had iced over.Sounds like some serious design faults if a couple of experienced pilots weren't able to easily understand what was going on? Presumably if you design an aircraft and fill it with men women and children, you would want it to be very straight forward to operate, not one where two/three pilots could "fly it into the sea" like that.
Presumably there were some other factors to consider?
The aircraft was operating under alternate law. The pilots had full authority.
SirBlade said:
The aircraft was perfectly serviceable. AP had disengaged as pitot's had iced over.
The aircraft was operating under alternate law. The pilots had full authority.
How does the AP system know the difference between pitot icing and a reduction in speed?, does it look at differentials between other speed sensors?The aircraft was operating under alternate law. The pilots had full authority.
I would have thought that the AP system would automatically apply pitot heat when the OAT indicated it was necessary, presumably they don't then?
A quick question - those of you who fly whether professionally or recreationally - surely in your training you practiced partial panel circuits where the ASI was covered from roll on take-off until being stationary after landing - indeed surely you had partial panel competitions in your light aircraft flying days? Unusual attitude training under the hood - like partial panel circuits - basic PPL fare where I come from.
In CRM terms - the words "I have control" when uttered by the more experienced of two pilots to the lesser must be uttered with gravitas & authority - it's a command not a question or a suggestion.
Many of these F***ups come back to an unbroken chain of events in which first principles - aherence to the basics could have salvaged the situation.
In CRM terms - the words "I have control" when uttered by the more experienced of two pilots to the lesser must be uttered with gravitas & authority - it's a command not a question or a suggestion.
Many of these F***ups come back to an unbroken chain of events in which first principles - aherence to the basics could have salvaged the situation.
Shouldn't have been near any storm of that callibre in the first place.
Combination off poor planning, poor understanding of their own aircraft and poor attention to what was going on.
Other people had managed to reroute yet these idiots hadn't.
Radar not even set correctly, LOL at this.
The captain manages to go for a nap before entering a storm, really?
With no idea on accurate speed or level heading we have a co pilot pulling back on a stick, really? And the captain has still fked off at this point.
Carry on ignoring stall warnings, again really?
TOGA at 37000 feet? Thats just inexperience not stupidity.
Stall warning still there and still pulling back on the stick?
No one understands the situation ? Fair enough, 2 co pilots with no idea whats going on and no captain.
And then sadly, at the end it all clicks.
Sadly I can assure, had the captain stayed in his seat that whole period, it would have certainly clicked alot sooner.
For spectators, it is very important that you keep an eye on the timings aswell, this all happened in minutes, not hours, in the heat of the moment, minutes go by like seconds.
Combination off poor planning, poor understanding of their own aircraft and poor attention to what was going on.
Other people had managed to reroute yet these idiots hadn't.
Radar not even set correctly, LOL at this.
The captain manages to go for a nap before entering a storm, really?
With no idea on accurate speed or level heading we have a co pilot pulling back on a stick, really? And the captain has still f
ked off at this point.Carry on ignoring stall warnings, again really?
TOGA at 37000 feet? Thats just inexperience not stupidity.
Stall warning still there and still pulling back on the stick?
No one understands the situation ? Fair enough, 2 co pilots with no idea whats going on and no captain.
And then sadly, at the end it all clicks.
Sadly I can assure, had the captain stayed in his seat that whole period, it would have certainly clicked alot sooner.
For spectators, it is very important that you keep an eye on the timings aswell, this all happened in minutes, not hours, in the heat of the moment, minutes go by like seconds.
Edited by Theflyer on Friday 9th December 00:36
Quick question to those that know.
The pitots iced over, air speed indicator fails to get readings. The plane switches to alternate law. OK I get that.
He then climbs and back pressure on stick. Odd but ok we all make mistakes.
Then the pitots de-ice and all readings go back to normal. Why then does the aircraft not revert back into normal flying mode and then cancel his imputs that lead to a stall?
The pitots iced over, air speed indicator fails to get readings. The plane switches to alternate law. OK I get that.
He then climbs and back pressure on stick. Odd but ok we all make mistakes.
Then the pitots de-ice and all readings go back to normal. Why then does the aircraft not revert back into normal flying mode and then cancel his imputs that lead to a stall?
BrabusMog said:
From a passenger point of view, would they have known what was going on or, like the chief pilot, only realise the gravity of the situation 40 seconds before impact? Excuse the ignorance, that article made for sobering reading and I just wondered what the poor passengers and crew must have been going through.
I guess if the flight crew could not feel the climb or fall then the passengers would not have done so either or anything they did feel would have been put down to it being turbulence. Death would have been pretty instant for them.
I have flown Airbus aircraft for fifteen years, starting with A320/321, and for ten years A330. There are so many factors in this incident (it's never just one), and many of them have already been discussed.
Since this incident, it has been acknowledged that the pitot heaters were inadequate, and to the best of my knowledge they have all been modified. I have done this scenario as a training detail in the simulator, bearing in mind that was with prior warning and the chance to study the systems and the relevant checklist. We worked our way through it with an instructor in a calm and controlled environment, and at the end walked out of the sim in one piece. As I said to my instructor at the time "these guys were in this situation in the middle of the night, probably quite tired, and no doubt in horrendous turbulence". What they went through would have been horrendous, and not the sort of situation where the human brain would have been able to work through things logically.
Very rarely does the aviation industry want to accept fatigue in incidents, but from my experience it is at an unacceptably high level throughout the airline industry. Whether it's the low cost boys doing multi sector days, or the long haul guys doing trips with the minimum amount of legal rest between flights, it's not a good situation at the moment. How many people reading this, would be happy to be awake for twelve hours before they go to work, and then be at work for another ten hours through the night. Try it sometime. And now our friends in Europe want to reduce our minimum rest periods.
Mistakes were made that night, but there is so much that will not come out in any investigation. It will cost too much!
Since this incident, it has been acknowledged that the pitot heaters were inadequate, and to the best of my knowledge they have all been modified. I have done this scenario as a training detail in the simulator, bearing in mind that was with prior warning and the chance to study the systems and the relevant checklist. We worked our way through it with an instructor in a calm and controlled environment, and at the end walked out of the sim in one piece. As I said to my instructor at the time "these guys were in this situation in the middle of the night, probably quite tired, and no doubt in horrendous turbulence". What they went through would have been horrendous, and not the sort of situation where the human brain would have been able to work through things logically.
Very rarely does the aviation industry want to accept fatigue in incidents, but from my experience it is at an unacceptably high level throughout the airline industry. Whether it's the low cost boys doing multi sector days, or the long haul guys doing trips with the minimum amount of legal rest between flights, it's not a good situation at the moment. How many people reading this, would be happy to be awake for twelve hours before they go to work, and then be at work for another ten hours through the night. Try it sometime. And now our friends in Europe want to reduce our minimum rest periods.
Mistakes were made that night, but there is so much that will not come out in any investigation. It will cost too much!
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