Electronic equipment - what's the risk?
Discussion
Probably been asked and done to death before, but....can someone who is either an airline captain, or an aircraft tech, explain categorically whether, and to what extent, there is any risk associated with the usage of electronic equipment in general, and then mobile phones, during taxi, takeoff and landing please.
The reason for my request? I'm a reasonably frequent flyer (usually at least 2 return trips a month) and there is ALWAYS someone who cannot/will not follow the rules around this. Recently I've started challenging people seated around me, and yesterday's exchange got a little heated (I won't bore you with the details). But my thoughts are, *IF* there is a risk, I don't want to be 300ft off the deck and wondering why I didn't say anything to the twunt next to me still using his phone, as we plummet back to earth. OTOH, if there's no risk, I'll learn to live with the fact that we are always going to be surrounded by twunts, and avoid the potential for air rage charges being brought.
Thanks in advance.
On a related note, something I HADN'T seen before yesterday. Landed at LHR, flying BA, and whilst we're still taxiing, 3 people seated towards the rear got up, got their bags and made their way to the front door! The cabin crew member at the front, who clearly spends more time in the Admiral Duncan than crewing aircraft, wasn't able to summon up any greater reproach than a general flapping of his arms and a bit of a splutter. I'm used to people being out of their seats and emptying the lockers when the seatbelt sign is still on but this was a leap forward from that behaviour!
The reason for my request? I'm a reasonably frequent flyer (usually at least 2 return trips a month) and there is ALWAYS someone who cannot/will not follow the rules around this. Recently I've started challenging people seated around me, and yesterday's exchange got a little heated (I won't bore you with the details). But my thoughts are, *IF* there is a risk, I don't want to be 300ft off the deck and wondering why I didn't say anything to the twunt next to me still using his phone, as we plummet back to earth. OTOH, if there's no risk, I'll learn to live with the fact that we are always going to be surrounded by twunts, and avoid the potential for air rage charges being brought.
Thanks in advance.
On a related note, something I HADN'T seen before yesterday. Landed at LHR, flying BA, and whilst we're still taxiing, 3 people seated towards the rear got up, got their bags and made their way to the front door! The cabin crew member at the front, who clearly spends more time in the Admiral Duncan than crewing aircraft, wasn't able to summon up any greater reproach than a general flapping of his arms and a bit of a splutter. I'm used to people being out of their seats and emptying the lockers when the seatbelt sign is still on but this was a leap forward from that behaviour!
Never mind the techy risk, bottom line is if the cabin crew ask (then tell) you to do something, it's only polite to do what they ask.
You are a visitor on their aircraft after all, and when it all catches fire they're the first person people cling to so ignore them/piss them off at your peril.
You are a visitor on their aircraft after all, and when it all catches fire they're the first person people cling to so ignore them/piss them off at your peril.
C8PPO said:
My question is, is it worth making a fuss over with a fellow passenger who you've got to sit next to for x hours, or is it some sort of hype which isn't really a risk?
In my opinion, yes, it is worth the fuss. When you need to get 200 people out of four emergency exits in less than three minutes, it's the kind of f***wit who thinks their phone call is so bloody precious who'll be the one to ask everyone to wait whilst they get their duty free out of the overhead locker as the aircraft fills with smoke.
Sensationalst though that may sound, I'm always extremely wary of the likely behaviour under stress of those holier-than-thou passengers who can't follow even the simplest of instructions.
Nothing says "I know nothing" like someone saying "I know better".
Crossflow Kid said:
Never mind the techy risk, bottom line is if the cabin crew ask (then tell) you to do something, it's only polite to do what they ask.
You are a visitor on their aircraft after all, and when it all catches fire they're the first person people cling to so ignore them/piss them off at your peril.
I think you'll find it's the law to follow the instructions of a member of crew on an airliner (certainly is under FAA rules on US planes).You are a visitor on their aircraft after all, and when it all catches fire they're the first person people cling to so ignore them/piss them off at your peril.
Puggit said:
Crossflow Kid said:
Never mind the techy risk, bottom line is if the cabin crew ask (then tell) you to do something, it's only polite to do what they ask.
You are a visitor on their aircraft after all, and when it all catches fire they're the first person people cling to so ignore them/piss them off at your peril.
I think you'll find it's the law to follow the instructions of a member of crew on an airliner (certainly is under FAA rules on US planes).You are a visitor on their aircraft after all, and when it all catches fire they're the first person people cling to so ignore them/piss them off at your peril.
C8PPO said:
Probably been asked and done to death before, but....can someone who is either an airline captain, or an aircraft tech, explain categorically whether, and to what extent, there is any risk associated with the usage of electronic equipment in general, and then mobile phones, during taxi, takeoff and landing please.
The reason for my request? I'm a reasonably frequent flyer (usually at least 2 return trips a month) and there is ALWAYS someone who cannot/will not follow the rules around this. Recently I've started challenging people seated around me, and yesterday's exchange got a little heated (I won't bore you with the details). But my thoughts are, *IF* there is a risk, I don't want to be 300ft off the deck and wondering why I didn't say anything to the twunt next to me still using his phone, as we plummet back to earth. OTOH, if there's no risk, I'll learn to live with the fact that we are always going to be surrounded by twunts, and avoid the potential for air rage charges being brought.
Thanks in advance.
Perhaps their phone was in flight mode?The reason for my request? I'm a reasonably frequent flyer (usually at least 2 return trips a month) and there is ALWAYS someone who cannot/will not follow the rules around this. Recently I've started challenging people seated around me, and yesterday's exchange got a little heated (I won't bore you with the details). But my thoughts are, *IF* there is a risk, I don't want to be 300ft off the deck and wondering why I didn't say anything to the twunt next to me still using his phone, as we plummet back to earth. OTOH, if there's no risk, I'll learn to live with the fact that we are always going to be surrounded by twunts, and avoid the potential for air rage charges being brought.
Thanks in advance.
DamienB said:
I would be interested to hear of a single occurrence where an electronic device, including a mobile phone, has caused any technical problem whatsoever onboard an airliner...
I bet you would. In the mean time, turn it off, sit down, and put your lap belt on. There's a good chap.DamienB (and OP) : I can't comment with any authority on airliners specifically, but Pugwash is on the money. a single phone on a small aircraft can be really annoying, so I imagine 300 pax + phones on an airliner would be a bit of a nightmare, although I guess it shoud be mitigated slightly by the cabling being shielded (any experts?) and further apart... That dah-dahda-dah-dahda noise is unwanted signals being forced into sensitive antennas and systems, and it could cause unusual behaviour. Not ideal when there are explosives in the doors.
The three risks of greatest concern to me:
Crew distraction - The chance of missing safety critical information over radios/intercom is one thing, another is the fact that ANY task is made harder by having someone shouting in your ear. Landing aircraft safely is something everyone involved (or even within a few miles) has a vested interest in, and it's desirable to keep it as easy as possible.
Nav kit interference - A number of nav systems (VOR and ILS for startes) use pretty basic signal comparison, and noise affecting those comparisons could lead to them (and by extension the aircraft) doing strange things - they do strange things from time to time without phones involved, so I can't imagine they'll help. The crew should take some kind of action, such as overshooting or backing up using other methods, but again forcing complexities like that into the final (busy!) stages of a flight isn't something anyone wants.
Refuelling - I suspect there are a number of rules about not refuelling aircraft with pax onboard, but there are posters in my neck of the woods saying not to have a phone on within 25m of an aircraft in case it is being done. They don't exactly hang about at big airports if they can get away with it, and I've been a lot more wary after reading of an American who got burnt on a forecourt when the backlight shorting in his mobile ignited fuel vapour. I always thought that wasn't much of a risk...
I have a sneaking suspicion the people you see on phones when they shouldn't be, won't be aircrew. A fairly decent hint I think.
The three risks of greatest concern to me:
Crew distraction - The chance of missing safety critical information over radios/intercom is one thing, another is the fact that ANY task is made harder by having someone shouting in your ear. Landing aircraft safely is something everyone involved (or even within a few miles) has a vested interest in, and it's desirable to keep it as easy as possible.
Nav kit interference - A number of nav systems (VOR and ILS for startes) use pretty basic signal comparison, and noise affecting those comparisons could lead to them (and by extension the aircraft) doing strange things - they do strange things from time to time without phones involved, so I can't imagine they'll help. The crew should take some kind of action, such as overshooting or backing up using other methods, but again forcing complexities like that into the final (busy!) stages of a flight isn't something anyone wants.
Refuelling - I suspect there are a number of rules about not refuelling aircraft with pax onboard, but there are posters in my neck of the woods saying not to have a phone on within 25m of an aircraft in case it is being done. They don't exactly hang about at big airports if they can get away with it, and I've been a lot more wary after reading of an American who got burnt on a forecourt when the backlight shorting in his mobile ignited fuel vapour. I always thought that wasn't much of a risk...
I have a sneaking suspicion the people you see on phones when they shouldn't be, won't be aircrew. A fairly decent hint I think.
eccles said:
C8PPO said:
Probably been asked and done to death before, but....can someone who is either an airline captain, or an aircraft tech, explain categorically whether, and to what extent, there is any risk associated with the usage of electronic equipment in general, and then mobile phones, during taxi, takeoff and landing please.
The reason for my request? I'm a reasonably frequent flyer (usually at least 2 return trips a month) and there is ALWAYS someone who cannot/will not follow the rules around this. Recently I've started challenging people seated around me, and yesterday's exchange got a little heated (I won't bore you with the details). But my thoughts are, *IF* there is a risk, I don't want to be 300ft off the deck and wondering why I didn't say anything to the twunt next to me still using his phone, as we plummet back to earth. OTOH, if there's no risk, I'll learn to live with the fact that we are always going to be surrounded by twunts, and avoid the potential for air rage charges being brought.
Thanks in advance.
Perhaps their phone was in flight mode?The reason for my request? I'm a reasonably frequent flyer (usually at least 2 return trips a month) and there is ALWAYS someone who cannot/will not follow the rules around this. Recently I've started challenging people seated around me, and yesterday's exchange got a little heated (I won't bore you with the details). But my thoughts are, *IF* there is a risk, I don't want to be 300ft off the deck and wondering why I didn't say anything to the twunt next to me still using his phone, as we plummet back to earth. OTOH, if there's no risk, I'll learn to live with the fact that we are always going to be surrounded by twunts, and avoid the potential for air rage charges being brought.
Thanks in advance.
I believe in reality the actual risk to aircraft / passenger safety must be pretty small - if it was a really serious issue they would be walking down the aisles with scanners to detect any phones still switched on.
However the cabin staff have the final say, and if they say "off" then thats the way to go
I think the airlines don't help themselves with compliancy on this by having different standards - some airlines everything is off, others are happy with flight mode
However the cabin staff have the final say, and if they say "off" then thats the way to go
I think the airlines don't help themselves with compliancy on this by having different standards - some airlines everything is off, others are happy with flight mode
One reason why there is so little ratified evidence is that each different type of cellphone system has totally different EMC properties. GSM, CDMA, 3G etc would all give completely different results. Also where there is an EMC problem it is highly dependent on frequency, ie it is a resonant point. You may get a problem with a 900MHz GSM, a glitch with a 880MHz GSM and zippo with a 2GHz 3G.
More problems were found in the early days of cellphones with 450MHz AMPS, and early GSM. The new systems on much higher frequencies are generally lower power and lower risk.
Each part of an avionics system is rated according to how critical its function is. The more critical the application the higher the level of the tests required for certification. Thats why most confirmed cases are limited to peripheral sensors rather that actual control functions.
Some effects are documented IIRC:
- Autopilot disconnects on 737NG aircraft
- Nav display mode switching on 737NG
- Hold smoke/fire detectors triggered.
On a lighter note there is the risk of embarrasment. One F/O had his mobile programmed with the GPWS alert as his 'incoming SMS' tone. One day he forgot to turn it off and somewhere over europe at many thousand feet there was an unexpected "Whoop Whoop Pull up Pull up". Capt was not amused.
More problems were found in the early days of cellphones with 450MHz AMPS, and early GSM. The new systems on much higher frequencies are generally lower power and lower risk.
Each part of an avionics system is rated according to how critical its function is. The more critical the application the higher the level of the tests required for certification. Thats why most confirmed cases are limited to peripheral sensors rather that actual control functions.
Some effects are documented IIRC:
- Autopilot disconnects on 737NG aircraft
- Nav display mode switching on 737NG
- Hold smoke/fire detectors triggered.
On a lighter note there is the risk of embarrasment. One F/O had his mobile programmed with the GPWS alert as his 'incoming SMS' tone. One day he forgot to turn it off and somewhere over europe at many thousand feet there was an unexpected "Whoop Whoop Pull up Pull up". Capt was not amused.
Burrow01 said:
I believe in reality the actual risk to aircraft / passenger safety must be pretty small - if it was a really serious issue they would be walking down the aisles with scanners to detect any phones still switched on.
If it was really serious no mobiles would be allowed on board. If there is a risk that someone might switch his phone on mid-flight and that it will cause the airplane to malfunction, it is not a risk you can take. Therefore the fact mobile phones are allowed on board at all makes me think this is an 'obey and don't think' rule.Le TVR said:
On a lighter note there is the risk of embarrasment. One F/O had his mobile programmed with the GPWS alert as his 'incoming SMS' tone. One day he forgot to turn it off and somewhere over europe at many thousand feet there was an unexpected "Whoop Whoop Pull up Pull up". Capt was not amused.
Not really funny but 
The main reason for switching off electrical equipment is safety in the event of an emergency. If you have your iPod on during takeoff or landing and something should happen you are less likely to hear the instructions from the crew.
The whole radio waves interfere with the nav equipment is rubbish, the amount of airlines installing WIFI on board is growing and now the new Inflight entertainment systems are using WIFI as it cuts down on cable and weight saving money in fuel.
Some airlines in the US have phone antennas on board so you can use your mobile via the inboard phone network.
The whole radio waves interfere with the nav equipment is rubbish, the amount of airlines installing WIFI on board is growing and now the new Inflight entertainment systems are using WIFI as it cuts down on cable and weight saving money in fuel.
Some airlines in the US have phone antennas on board so you can use your mobile via the inboard phone network.
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