Red Arrows to use only 7 aircraft in 2012
Discussion
Sam_68 said:
Bedazzled said:
Averages are meaningless when the selection criteria are so stringent; all top fighter pilots will be exceptional.
Yes, I agree (which is why I said it).Perhaps the fact that there are so few female jet pilots is because there are fewer women with the right exceptional qualities, though? And it would appear that in this instance, the selection criteria failed to weed out the lack of mental resilience that caused the problem?
For what it's worth, I'm guessing that there is going to be a greater prevalence of women who have the physical characteristics that are suggested by the research I referred as offering them better G-tolerance (short stature, fat deposits on breasts and hips) than there is a pronounced bias toward the reduced ability to make fast judgement calls, so it could be argued that on balance of those particular physical and psychological traits, they are better suited to piloting fast jets than men.
But those are only two factors: there are many others, including the possible propaganda issues mentioned above, the potential for a very expensively trained and scarce resource becoming unexpectedly unfit for active service due to pregnancy at a critical time, and the undeniable and very pronounced statistical fact that women take much more sick leave (about 35% more) than men in general, so again there is the potential that your very expensively trained and critical resource isn't going to deliver as much productivity for your money, and may fail to do so at a critical time.
Equal rights and equal opps are all very well (and I strongly support both, in civilian fields), but the difference with the armed forces is that the ONLY thing that matters is our ability to beat the enemy in a conflict situation.
If there is any possibility that sex, disability, or (yes, I'm going to be controversial again) even ethnic or religious groups would reduce (or enhance) potential fighting efficiency or cohesiveness of a military unit, then I think it should be left to the forces themselves to form a view on whether those groups should be denied access to (or positively encouraged within) certain sectors of the service.
In short: political correctness should not be allowed to influence military selection.
Bedazzled said:
Which part of "averages are meaningless" don't you understand?
None.But I also understand the cost, complexity and fallibility of trying to assess which aspects of a persons ability and psychology are above or below average, or contain hidden flaws, so 'average' or 'typical' patterns and traits can be useful as a means of benchmarking and as a basis for more detailed analysis.
I agree that propoganda is a risk, whatever, but rightly or wrongly, outrages against women are generally regarded as being more emotive.
ETA: I wasn't particularly thinking of women fighter pilots when I mentioned cohesiveness; I was actually thinking more of the potential divisiveness of different groups having different rights within a military unit (for example if they were excused a particular duty or obligation due to religion or physical ability), but in terms of women it might, for example, be relevant in the 'pressure cooker' environment of a submarine, where the complexities of human relationships might very well cause unusual tensions.
Edited by Sam_68 on Wednesday 7th March 20:59
Sam_68 said:
Bedazzled said:
Averages are meaningless when the selection criteria are so stringent; all top fighter pilots will be exceptional.
And it would appear that in this instance, the selection criteria failed to weed out the lack of mental resilience that caused the problem?The Red Arrows aren't there as a prequel to front-line service, rather front-line service is a pre-requisite for selection. She appears to have exceeded this requirement by actually flying combat missions previously, something which I guess many, or even the majority of, previous years'Red Arrows pilots haven't done?
IMO we as taxpayers have already had more than our money's worth out of her. It's an unfortunate situation, yes, but let's not go mad. We should be supporting the Red Arrows more than ever at this time becasue for me at least they are one of the few things left that make me proud to be British.
Eric Mc said:
Sam has a unique way of putting his views across. Don't ask him about museums, whatever you do.
Well, he may well be an informed commentator on museums, given that he's clearly something of an ancient relic himself. He's probably part of a reserve collection somewhere - you know, the sort of exhibit they dare not put on public display in case it causes widespread offence and gets vandalised (as I suspect he is about to be 
)
And they want front-line female combat pilots?Ginetta G15 Girl said:
I'm intrigued by your comments and attitude towards female aircrew Sam.
You are obviously an expert on Military Flying, so could you please enlighten me as to when you served with the RAF and how many Flying Hours you have in your LogBook?
I claim no expertise whatsoever in military flying and none and never.You are obviously an expert on Military Flying, so could you please enlighten me as to when you served with the RAF and how many Flying Hours you have in your LogBook?
And I'm actually quite ambivalent about whether we have front line female aircrew - I just don't think this lady has done any favours to the cause of promoting female front-line service by her actions.
What I do object to is the steady and gradual creep of political correctness and nannying in the forces (and in the country in general).
dr_gn said:
I agree with a lot of what you've said, but remember she's *already* done the job you appear to be saying she's not fit for (ie flying in combat).
Yes, I appreciate that; but lets not also forget that much of our Air Force's combat flying in fast jets is in situations that are little more than a very expensive video game... by which I mean that they are undertaken in theatres where our technology is so overwhelmingly superior that there is little more risk involved than there would be in an exercise over Wales.And I'm NOT saying that she's unfit for the job: quite the oppposite - I'm saying that she should have been told to man up and get her pretty arse back in the cockpit and do the job she's been trained and paid to do.
The whole point of this thread, I thought, was that SHE appears to be saying she's not fit for the job?
Sam_68 said:
dr_gn said:
I agree with a lot of what you've said, but remember she's *already* done the job you appear to be saying she's not fit for (ie flying in combat).
I'm saying that she should have been told to man up and get her pretty arse back in the cockpit and do the job she's been trained and paid to do."Inquiry reveals female Red Arrows pilot responsible for killing 50 people at airshow had been denied transfer"
Would your posts have been any different?
badgers_back said:
Has the reason for the Bournemouth crash been released yet??
Don't think so, but bird strike seemed a popular bet.I was told that the ground ejection fatality was probably a procedural mistake rather than a mechanical fault. Can't remember the details, but something to do with leg restraints IIRC. Interesting quote on that from Martin-Baker:
On 8th November, there was a fatal accident involving the Red Arrows Hawk aircraft XX177 following the ejection of a Mk10B seat.
"We have had the opportunity to examine the seat and, while not wishing to pre-empt the outcome of the investigation currently underway, are satisfied that neither a mechanical nor a design fault were to blame for the fatality.
We welcome the opportunity to assist the Lincolnshire Police and the Military Air Accident Investigation Board in identifying the causes of this tragic accident
In the meantime, our thoughts and prayers are with the family and friends of Flight Lieutenant Sean Cunningham who lost his life in this accident."
dr_gn said:
I the headline had been something like:
"Inquiry reveals female Red Arrows pilot responsible for killing 50 people at airshow had been denied transfer"
Would your posts have been any different?
Yes, of course. So would they have been if the headline had been something like 'female Red Arrows pilot discharged from service on mental health grounds'; I would have had a great deal more sympathy."Inquiry reveals female Red Arrows pilot responsible for killing 50 people at airshow had been denied transfer"
Would your posts have been any different?
Unfortunately, the headline currently reads something like (and I paraphrase
) 'female Red Arrows Pilot takes a decision to fly a desk at taxpayer's expense, because the deaths of two comrades have bothered her a bit'.I wonder what the Army's response would be if all the Regimental colleagues of the 6 soldiers killed in Afghanistan on Tuesday asked to be transferred back to the UK because they were afraid their fears of being attacked by the Taliban might affect their performance in the field?
Prawo Jazdy said:
Sam_68 said:
I claim no expertise whatsoever in military flying and none and never.
Yet...Sam_68 said:
but lets not also forget that much of our Air Force's combat flying in fast jets is in situations that are little more than a very expensive video game...
):Look at the statistics for British and German losses during the World War II: both sides took heavy losses, because both sides were reasonably well matched.
Now look at the statistics for Coalition and Iraqi casulaties in the Gulf war. True, you won't find that many Iraqi losses in the air, but that's 'cos we'd mainly wiped them out on the ground before we got there. UK losses - particularly those to enemy action as opposed to pilot error, equipment failure and friendly fire - were fairly trivial, all things considered.
Sam_68 said:
dr_gn said:
I the headline had been something like:
"Inquiry reveals female Red Arrows pilot responsible for killing 50 people at airshow had been denied transfer"
Would your posts have been any different?
Yes, of course. So would they have been if the headline had been something like 'female Red Arrows pilot discharged from service on mental health grounds'; I would have had a great deal more sympathy."Inquiry reveals female Red Arrows pilot responsible for killing 50 people at airshow had been denied transfer"
Would your posts have been any different?
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