Ridiculous musing, but...
Discussion
eharding said:
I heard they covered that on page 1 
Probably about time we had a discussion of the Javelin vs. Indonesian C130 engagement? - obviously, the Javelin had a huge speed advantage, but the Hercules was arguably better in a turning fight, not to mention having considerably better aerobatic performance.......
Reading Peter Caygill's book on the Javelin. I haven't come across this incident yet.Probably about time we had a discussion of the Javelin vs. Indonesian C130 engagement? - obviously, the Javelin had a huge speed advantage, but the Hercules was arguably better in a turning fight, not to mention having considerably better aerobatic performance.......
AlexiusG55 said:
Dr Jekyll said:
During the late 70's it looked as though Royal Navy Phantoms and Buccaneers might well be fighting Guatamalan P51s. I think someone looked at using air to ground rockets against the Mustangs.
I've heard that it was the Indonesian Konfrontasi in the mid 60s. They actually dug out a Spitfire (PR. Mk. 19) to have mock dogfights with a Lightning in order to develop tactics to use against the Indonesian Mustangs.Simpo Two said:
I have no idea how a Tucano with 8x.303s would fare against a Spitfire. There will be people here who've flown Tucanos - what do they think?
http://www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&f=191&t=896469&mid=149417&i=0&nmt=Tucano+vs.+Hurricane&mid=149417Concensus was...nobody will ever know unless they try it I think.
Its really intresting topic and one i have thought about myslef. Anyone have an idea how much a AIM-9X costs? I know there was one version of the Sidewinder that was about $85K each as they where mass produced. Maybe if the nice to have featurs of the 9X where removed (cheaper seaker no thrust-vectoring) the unit price could be reduced to make them more cost effective?
Also would planes like the Typhoon be needed? Wouldn't cheaper aircraft like say the Hawk get the job done?
SOmeone earlier mentioned about using the cannon as well as missiles. Think i heard that the Typhoon could only carry 150 rounds. Would that be enough for more than one pass at a prop fighter?
Chris.
Also would planes like the Typhoon be needed? Wouldn't cheaper aircraft like say the Hawk get the job done?
SOmeone earlier mentioned about using the cannon as well as missiles. Think i heard that the Typhoon could only carry 150 rounds. Would that be enough for more than one pass at a prop fighter?
Chris.
chuntington101 said:
SOmeone earlier mentioned about using the cannon as well as missiles. Think i heard that the Typhoon could only carry 150 rounds. Would that be enough for more than one pass at a prop fighter?
Chris.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauser_BK-27Chris.
I make it about 5.3 seconds at maximum rpm.
Max_Torque said:
2nd silly idea, would you even bother to fight then in the sky? Surely you'd just pop a cruise missile in via the open hanger window one day when they are all parked up? 1 missile, job done, and you've taken out all the infrastructure to keep them (or any plane) flying too??
Yeah that's what you would do if it was a modern army fighting an ww2 army. But that's not what we are comparing. Having said that a few aircraft dropping cluster bombs (assuming we are allowed to use them) and you could take a whole airfields out in one go. 
SlipStream77 said:
chuntington101 said:
SOmeone earlier mentioned about using the cannon as well as missiles. Think i heard that the Typhoon could only carry 150 rounds. Would that be enough for more than one pass at a prop fighter?
Chris.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauser_BK-27Chris.
I make it about 5.3 seconds at maximum rpm.
Weight of numbers will always out-gun weight of fire-power, however.
Today, you could buy 30 Spitfires for the cost of one Typhoon, near as dammit.
Even at an optimistic 15:1 exchange ratio, the Typhoon is still dead once it attempts to indulge in a turning fight with 30 relics (more than likely from a mid-air than anything else), leaving the remaining Spitfires to strafe the flight line at Coningsby, along with the fuel farm and the car park, thereby discouraging anyone else to come and have a go.
The Olympic publicity pictures of a couple of likely lads leaning out of a Puma, one with a GPMG and the other waving a "CALL 121.5 - FOLLOW ME" sign always raises a wry smile, because Johnny Jihadist in his crappy old PA28 they're intercepting is more than likely to hold up a "BEEEEHIND YOU!" sign, and the poor sods in the Puma only just look round in time to see Johnny's mate Terry Taliban in some equally crappy AA5 slam into them, leaving Johnny Jihadist to go on his way - except that Johnny Jihadist knows that all diving a PA28 into the Olympic stadium is going to do is leave a greasy stain and do bugger all else in the way of damage, and isn't going to bother with it in the first place.
Today, you could buy 30 Spitfires for the cost of one Typhoon, near as dammit.
Even at an optimistic 15:1 exchange ratio, the Typhoon is still dead once it attempts to indulge in a turning fight with 30 relics (more than likely from a mid-air than anything else), leaving the remaining Spitfires to strafe the flight line at Coningsby, along with the fuel farm and the car park, thereby discouraging anyone else to come and have a go.
The Olympic publicity pictures of a couple of likely lads leaning out of a Puma, one with a GPMG and the other waving a "CALL 121.5 - FOLLOW ME" sign always raises a wry smile, because Johnny Jihadist in his crappy old PA28 they're intercepting is more than likely to hold up a "BEEEEHIND YOU!" sign, and the poor sods in the Puma only just look round in time to see Johnny's mate Terry Taliban in some equally crappy AA5 slam into them, leaving Johnny Jihadist to go on his way - except that Johnny Jihadist knows that all diving a PA28 into the Olympic stadium is going to do is leave a greasy stain and do bugger all else in the way of damage, and isn't going to bother with it in the first place.
eharding said:
Weight of numbers will always out-gun weight of fire-power, however.
Today, you could buy 30 Spitfires for the cost of one Typhoon, near as dammit.
Even at an optimistic 15:1 exchange ratio, the Typhoon is still dead once it attempts to indulge in a turning fight with 30 relics (more than likely from a mid-air than anything else), leaving the remaining Spitfires to strafe the flight line at Coningsby, along with the fuel farm and the car park, thereby discouraging anyone else to come and have a go.
The Olympic publicity pictures of a couple of likely lads leaning out of a Puma, one with a GPMG and the other waving a "CALL 121.5 - FOLLOW ME" sign always raises a wry smile, because Johnny Jihadist in his crappy old PA28 they're intercepting is more than likely to hold up a "BEEEEHIND YOU!" sign, and the poor sods in the Puma only just look round in time to see Johnny's mate Terry Taliban in some equally crappy AA5 slam into them, leaving Johnny Jihadist to go on his way - except that Johnny Jihadist knows that all diving a PA28 into the Olympic stadium is going to do is leave a greasy stain and do bugger all else in the way of damage, and isn't going to bother with it in the first place.
Assuming a ratio of 15:1 then a typhoon should be able to carry approx 16 air to air missiles at a push (4 x ASRAMS under the fuselage, aim9 on the outer 2 wing pylons, 4 x double carriers for ASRAMS on the inner pair of wing pylons). Not saying it would have enough fuel to use them all though! Today, you could buy 30 Spitfires for the cost of one Typhoon, near as dammit.
Even at an optimistic 15:1 exchange ratio, the Typhoon is still dead once it attempts to indulge in a turning fight with 30 relics (more than likely from a mid-air than anything else), leaving the remaining Spitfires to strafe the flight line at Coningsby, along with the fuel farm and the car park, thereby discouraging anyone else to come and have a go.
The Olympic publicity pictures of a couple of likely lads leaning out of a Puma, one with a GPMG and the other waving a "CALL 121.5 - FOLLOW ME" sign always raises a wry smile, because Johnny Jihadist in his crappy old PA28 they're intercepting is more than likely to hold up a "BEEEEHIND YOU!" sign, and the poor sods in the Puma only just look round in time to see Johnny's mate Terry Taliban in some equally crappy AA5 slam into them, leaving Johnny Jihadist to go on his way - except that Johnny Jihadist knows that all diving a PA28 into the Olympic stadium is going to do is leave a greasy stain and do bugger all else in the way of damage, and isn't going to bother with it in the first place.
But why would the Typhoon ever get into a "turning fight"? It would just use it's radar to pick off the Spits one at a time from about 25 miles away with an AAM, and if somehow a Spit managed to "creep up on it" (again pretty much impossible given the slow speed and massive radar signature of an old airframe) it could just nudge the throttles up a couple of stops and it would be "bye bye baby" even in a vertical climb! The further decisive factor would be the "all weather" capability of a modern fighter. It can kill you stone dead without even getting visual on you in heavy cloud. In WW2 a lot of fighters spent a large amount of time flying round in circles trying to simply find the enemy for a visual engagement!
Max_Torque said:
But why would the Typhoon ever get into a "turning fight"? It would just use it's radar to pick off the Spits one at a time from about 25 miles away with an AAM, and if somehow a Spit managed to "creep up on it" (again pretty much impossible given the slow speed and massive radar signature of an old airframe) it could just nudge the throttles up a couple of stops and it would be "bye bye baby" even in a vertical climb! The further decisive factor would be the "all weather" capability of a modern fighter. It can kill you stone dead without even getting visual on you in heavy cloud. In WW2 a lot of fighters spent a large amount of time flying round in circles trying to simply find the enemy for a visual engagement!
Stupid ROEs like they suffer in other conflicts? Wasn't it GW2 that required pilots to have a visual before attacking, so removing the chance to do exactly what you mention above?Max_Torque said:
Here's a question:
Assuming a Spitfire (you can pick any model) and a Typhoon, were both sat stationary on the end of the runway, and both pinned the throttles at the same moment, which is quickest to say 1,000, 10,000 and 20,000 feet and by how much??? ;-)
Typhoon to them all by a long long long way I'd say. I'd be surprised if any Spit exceeded 4,000ft a min max climb, I bet the Tiffie does about 10 times that.Assuming a Spitfire (you can pick any model) and a Typhoon, were both sat stationary on the end of the runway, and both pinned the throttles at the same moment, which is quickest to say 1,000, 10,000 and 20,000 feet and by how much??? ;-)
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