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Simpo Two
54,187 posts
134 months
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Hugo a Gogo said: fair point
I thought it was quite insulting and dismissive to talk about the 'boring' story of Dresden It is boring now becaue it is trotted out time and time again for the compulsory arse-kicking exercise. Not sure why you were insulted though - unless you had a relative killed there or are German yourself. If not, 'guilt by proxy' is half the reason this country is screwed.
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Eric Mc
67,253 posts
134 months
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rhinochopig said: Eric Mc said: jmorgan said: Remember also, the venerable Lancaster was not the only aircraft. Quite - Wellesley Battle Blenheim Wellington Hampden Whitley Stirling Halifax Warwick B-17 Liberator I'm sure there are more. Mossie pathfinder squadron. Tut tut. Arguably one of the hardest jobs as well. I said there were more. I know that the Pathfinders used P-51s near the end of the war and Bomber Command also used Bostons.
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Hugo a Gogo
15,131 posts
102 months
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Simpo Two said: Hugo a Gogo said: fair point
I thought it was quite insulting and dismissive to talk about the 'boring' story of Dresden It is boring now becaue it is trotted out time and time again for the compulsory arse-kicking exercise. Not sure why you were insulted though - unless you had a relative killed there or are German yourself. If not, 'guilt by proxy' is half the reason this country is screwed. it's insulting to them, other humans I'm a human too
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TEKNOPUG
7,463 posts
74 months
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Eric Mc said: I said there were more. I know that the Pathfinders used P-51s near the end of the war and Bomber Command also used Bostons. Were the Heavies still all operating out of the UK at the end of the war or were any stationed in mainland Europe?
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Eric Mc
67,253 posts
134 months
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TEKNOPUG said: Eric Mc said: I said there were more. I know that the Pathfinders used P-51s near the end of the war and Bomber Command also used Bostons. Were the Heavies still all operating out of the UK at the end of the war or were any stationed in mainland Europe? The vast bulk of Bomber Command remained in England - and mainly Lincoln and Yorkshire. As did the vast bulk of the USAAF bombing effort - mainly based in Suffolk and Norfolk.
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mike62
129 posts
53 months
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My uncle was a Halifax pilot during WWII, would have been nice for him to have lived long enough to finally see a memorial, shame on the do-gooder apologists.
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AM04ARO
2,712 posts
84 months
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I really admire these that did what needed to be done in both WW1 and 2.
I doubt that we could do it again as we would not have the moral fibre that they had. Sad but true.
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GadgeS3C
1,951 posts
33 months
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I lived for a while on the border of Notts and Lincolnshire. You couldn't go very far without seeing the remains of a WW2 bomber airfield. Sometimes brought a lump to my throat when I came across the decaying buildings or bits of runway.
I'm pleased to see the bravery and sacrifices made by those young men and boys are being recognised.
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SamHH
4,743 posts
85 months
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Simpo Two said: It does contrast somewhat with the more usual quote (ie unprompted by a young BBC person) of 'If anyone tells you he wasn't scared he was a bloody liar'.
I think the way these veterans are obviously feeling pressured to change their story/views/opinions to please modern PC types is disgraceful. Do you have any evidence for this or are you making it up?
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mebe
31 posts
12 months
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Having lurked this thread a bit I think a step back is in order.
There is nothing wrong with Hugo wanting to debate the awkward issues raised - that amongst many, many other things is exactly why the 'awkward' issues took place - if we never learn, question or revise then what exactly is the point of the freedoms 55000 or so brave souls helped to win? We actually owe it to them to keep questioning - they helped buy us that right.
I guess the moral of the story is that any standards you set for yourself (think conventions) will ultimately fail under the right duress. I dont eat people. I might if it were the only option for survival. I don't area bomb civilians... well we don't these days but we sure as hell would if it were the only option.
Took my 80 year old mother to Hendon (I think it was Hendon not Duxford) along with young nephew - she cried when she saw the B17 (British stuff didn't take off or land near her). That's what it was worth. That's why, even if in hindsight we judge it wrong by the standards we'd like to try to uphold, we need offer no criticism to those who had no choice but to do whatever they thought necessary.
rant over.
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el stovey
13,452 posts
132 months
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It's not 'us' that judged the actions of Bomber Command it was those that survived the war and the wartime and post war leaders.
Churchill disagreed with Harris's continued bombing of Germany, it was the the fact that the fire bombing of German cities didn't really fit in with our story of how we won the war that resulted in Bomber Command never getting the recognition they deserved at the time.
Don't blame modern handwringing lefties and apologists or the Guardian, blame those that were around at the time. They're the ones that refused to recognise Bomber Command's contribution.
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Simpo Two
54,187 posts
134 months
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el stovey said: Churchill disagreed with Harris's continued bombing of Germany Churchill was in charge - he could have told Harris to stop! SamHH said: Do you have any evidence for this or are you making it up? You omitted option 3: Intelligent deduction.
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el stovey
13,452 posts
132 months
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Simpo I think you need to research a bit into Bomber Command and Churchill's relationship with them.
Churchill distanced himself from Bomber command and their contribution to the war. He even omitted them completely from his VE day speech.
Bomber command weren't betrayed by modern apologists they were betrayed by Churchill and other political figures after the war.
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Simpo Two
54,187 posts
134 months
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el stovey said: Simpo I think you need to research a bit into Bomber Command and Churchill's relationship with them.
Churchill distanced himself from Bomber command and their contribution to the war. He even omitted them completely from his VE day speech. Yes, but only at the very end when he realised that area bombing might actually be a political hot potato in the ensuing peace. His decision was shrewdly political. Harris could not simply have taken 1,000 bombers to Germany if Churchill had said 'no'. Did you watch 'Who Betrayed Bomber Command' shown recently?
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Bedazzled
4,040 posts
90 months
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el stovey said: ...blame those that were around at the time. They're the ones that refused to recognise Bomber Command's contribution. They knew the late-war firestorms were 'bad press' even by the moral standards of the day, so it was brushed under the carpet. The Americans did the same, according to Wiki they were planning to drop a total of seven A-bombs on Japan, just think how many millions of civilians would have died. Hamburg ('43) is an interesting comparison, area bombing was a necessary evil when we were fighting for our survival, but the late-war firestorms are best remembered with some humility. Dresden was an error of judgement both morally and strategically, Harris was following a dogged strategy and we had half an eye on the Russians. As others have said, the young men who put their lives on the line had nothing to do with these decisions.
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jmorgan
16,999 posts
153 months
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Dresden was the leaders appeasing Stalin.
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Vipers
15,490 posts
97 months
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Odd comment in the Daily Express Friday by Richard Desmond, owner of the paper, he said "It is vital that we remember the men of Bomber Command. Without these brave men we would probably be under Nazi occupation now" Nazi occupation?, 66 years after the war ended if Germany won, is he on this planet or what! 
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AM04ARO
2,712 posts
84 months
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Vipers said: Odd comment in the Daily Express Friday by Richard Desmond, owner of the paper, he said "It is vital that we remember the men of Bomber Command. Without these brave men we would probably be under Nazi occupation now" Nazi occupation?, 66 years after the war ended if Germany won, is he on this planet or what! It was a 1000 year Reich after all. I think it is fair to say that they would have been as ruthless as they needed to be to stay in power.
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Negative Creep
11,262 posts
96 months
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AM04ARO said: Vipers said: Odd comment in the Daily Express Friday by Richard Desmond, owner of the paper, he said "It is vital that we remember the men of Bomber Command. Without these brave men we would probably be under Nazi occupation now" Nazi occupation?, 66 years after the war ended if Germany won, is he on this planet or what! It was a 1000 year Reich after all. I think it is fair to say that they would have been as ruthless as they needed to be to stay in power. Although straying off topic, it's an interesting question. If we had been invaded and conquered in 1940 would we still be occupied now? Hitler would have still invaded the Soviet Union, and likely won since there would have been no distractions in the Balkans or Lend Lease for Stalin.
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Vipers
15,490 posts
97 months
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Negative Creep said: Although straying off topic, it's an interesting question. If we had been invaded and conquered in 1940 would we still be occupied now? Hitler would have still invaded the Soviet Union, and likely won since there would have been no distractions in the Balkans or Lend Lease for Stalin. Just seemed an odd quote, there is a thought which has been branded around that we may have been better off if Germany had won. Anyway, we owe a lot to the fliers in both wars, so ignore my comments, let us be gratefull to so many brave men and women during both wars, to you we thank you. God bless you all.
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