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hidetheelephants
5,716 posts
63 months
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Ray Luxury-Yacht said: I reckon our WW2 'flail' Tanks are pretty badass...used for mine clearing...  Hobart's Funnies are a category on their own.
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N Dentressangle
2,490 posts
92 months
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bulb763
722 posts
104 months
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hidetheelephants said: Mave said: I thought the A and B had the same G capability (they are the same airframe!) and it was the "C" with its revised wing, control surfaces, and structure that had the lower capability? I'd have thought the B & C would share airframes as they both need foldy wings whereas the A does not. Only C has foldy wings. A & B certainly don't share the same airframe either. In terms of G capability it's more like A > C > B. And as for badass british mil machines, it's got to be some flavour of nuclear sub 
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hidetheelephants
5,716 posts
63 months
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Why does the B not have folding wings? It's likely to be marketed at owners of baby flattops, so needs to fit smaller decklifts than the C will ever encounter.
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Godalmighty83
221 posts
124 months
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hidetheelephants said: Why does the B not have folding wings? It's likely to be marketed at owners of baby flattops, so needs to fit smaller decklifts than the C will ever encounter. A folding wing uses up a lot of internal space which is already a premium on the B and requires a bulky heavy support structure which will eat into what the lift fan and engine can lift. The C has larger wings to create extra slow speed lift for shorter launch and lift offs those larger wings give it a space problem, the B provides its own stability via engine and roll posts so such a large wing is not required. Both are compromised in design in order to suit the needs, a B with a larger folding wing would have a very low max take off load and higher loadings on vertical landings and a C with the smaller wing would be unstable on launch / landings.
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Mojocvh
12,906 posts
132 months
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Eric Mc said: Thee have been lots of single engined, carrier borne aircraft over the years. yep, bet they didn't cost $291.7 million per aircraft though....
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Brother D
864 posts
46 months
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Ray Luxury-Yacht said: I reckon our WW2 'flail' Tanks are pretty badass...used for mine clearing...  (As opposed to)?
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FourWheelDrift
56,877 posts
154 months
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Ray Luxury-Yacht said: I reckon our WW2 'flail' Tanks are pretty badass...used for mine clearing...  On a British Churchill perhaps and not an American Sherman like the one above. But then the Churchill wasn't a good tank. 
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hidetheelephants
5,716 posts
63 months
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FourWheelDrift said: Ray Luxury-Yacht said: I reckon our WW2 'flail' Tanks are pretty badass...used for mine clearing...  On a British Churchill perhaps and not an American Sherman like the one above. But then the Churchill wasn't a good tank.  Neither was the Sherman! Given the choice I'd prefer to be in the slow and heavily armoured Churchill; an AVRE with the gigantic petard mortar for preference.
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Eric Mc
67,846 posts
135 months
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Mojocvh said: Eric Mc said: Thee have been lots of single engined, carrier borne aircraft over the years. yep, bet they didn't cost $291.7 million per aircraft though.... Not sure of ANY combat aircraft costing that - no matter how many engines it's got.
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Godalmighty83
221 posts
124 months
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The $291m was a 2011/2012 LRP batch production cost as well, its expected to drop to half of that in 2016 when the bulk enters production and the orders for our carriers come through. The UK only has two at the moment and they are both still in the states for training.
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Mojocvh
12,906 posts
132 months
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Tango13
2,654 posts
46 months
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Eric Mc said: Not sure of ANY combat aircraft costing that - no matter how many engines it's got. Not heard of the B2 then?  The USAF originally wanted to buy iirc 130 of them but budget cuts meant they only got about 22 one of which has crashed. The problem was the design and development costs pretty much the same no matter how many you build so when you load the D&D costs onto 22 airframes you get a $2 billion bomber! Bill Sweetman wrote a good book on the B2 (ISBN 0-87938-599-5) which details how the costs went pear shaped.
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hidetheelephants
5,716 posts
63 months
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Tango13 said: Eric Mc said: Not sure of ANY combat aircraft costing that - no matter how many engines it's got. Not heard of the B2 then?  The USAF originally wanted to buy iirc 130 of them but budget cuts meant they only got about 22 one of which has crashed. The problem was the design and development costs pretty much the same no matter how many you build so when you load the D&D costs onto 22 airframes you get a $2 billion bomber! Bill Sweetman wrote a good book on the B2 (ISBN 0-87938-599-5) which details how the costs went pear shaped. B1B was eyebleedingly expensive too, as was our worldbeating MRA4...
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yellowjack
1,292 posts
36 months
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IroningMan said: hidetheelephants said: Not to mention being late, overweight, overbudget and hugely inferior to the F35C. The list's tonk as well; the Trojan is the sapper's version of the Chally2, the Jackal is expensive for what it is and absurdly niche(if it avoids being binned once we leave Afghanistan I'll be very surprised) and that adaptive tank is just vapourware. It's like the author has flicked through a few issues of Janes' Defence Weekly and chosen things at random. Trojan is Chieftan-based, but otherwise spot-on. Both wrong. The Titan and the Trojan are neither "versions of Challenger 2", nor are they "Chieftain based". Both Titan and Trojan are purpose designed and built specifically for the Armoured Engineer units of the Royal Engineers. They are in fact the first 'off the drawing board' designs for use in their role, as opposed to previous vehicles which were converted to the role from surplus gun tanks (both Centurion and Chieftain). They have been designed to replace the last of the Chieftain AVRE and AVLB. The Challenger 2 connection comes from the extensive use of parts bin items from the Challenger. These include powerplant, drive train, and suspension/track parts, all attached to a purpose built hull. This results in better commonality of spare parts with RAC units, less strain on Log Sp chain, and transferable skills between REME units supporting RAC/RE units. It also means that, unlike during Op Granby in '91, RE units with a responsibility for providing mobility/counter-mobility operations can at last keep up with the battle groups to which they are attached. Back then we struggled to keep up with the battle groups, who were operating Challenger 1, whilst we were driving a mix of Mk5 and Mk6 Chieftain based vehicles, and where the infantry were zipping about in Warrior IFV, we Sappers were miles behind, struggling to keep our 1960's FV432 APCs running at all, let alone keeping up with the infantry. Back toward the OP, whilst the GPMG may well be BADASS to the max, the Bren must rate pretty highly too. The 7.62mm LMG I took to war in 1991 was converted from a .303" Bren, dated 1944 . The same basic weapon in service for close on 50 years - not to be sniffed at.
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yellowjack
1,292 posts
36 months
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hidetheelephants said: FourWheelDrift said: Ray Luxury-Yacht said: I reckon our WW2 'flail' Tanks are pretty badass...used for mine clearing...  On a British Churchill perhaps and not an American Sherman like the one above. But then the Churchill wasn't a good tank.  Neither was the Sherman! Given the choice I'd prefer to be in the slow and heavily armoured Churchill; an AVRE with the gigantic petard mortar for preference. I'll see your Churchill AVRE, and raise you a Centurion with a 165mm demolition gun on the front and a Rolls Royce Meteor petrol engine out back. Powerrrrrrrrrr!!
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hidetheelephants
5,716 posts
63 months
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yellowjack said: I'll see your Churchill AVRE, and raise you a Centurion with a 165mm demolition gun on the front and a Rolls Royce Meteor petrol engine out back. Powerrrrrrrrrr!!  Sappers do it with High Explosives! 
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PRTVR
854 posts
91 months
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hidetheelephants said: Neither was the Sherman! Given the choice I'd prefer to be in the slow and heavily armoured Churchill; an AVRE with the gigantic petard mortar for preference. I remember chatting with my friends dad about the 2 WW, he joined the REME, he thought it would be a nice safe job fixing tank building bridges and the like, he ended up in a churchill with the petard mortar, on D day his tank was one of the first ashore and as he put it it appeared like the whole german army was firing at them, when the mortar developed a fault, he ended up on the front of the tank fixing it, bullets flying everywhere, at this point he said him plan for the war wasn't going the way he planned 
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IroningMan
5,956 posts
116 months
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yellowjack said: IroningMan said: hidetheelephants said: Not to mention being late, overweight, overbudget and hugely inferior to the F35C. The list's tonk as well; the Trojan is the sapper's version of the Chally2, the Jackal is expensive for what it is and absurdly niche(if it avoids being binned once we leave Afghanistan I'll be very surprised) and that adaptive tank is just vapourware. It's like the author has flicked through a few issues of Janes' Defence Weekly and chosen things at random. Trojan is Chieftan-based, but otherwise spot-on. Both wrong. The Titan and the Trojan are neither "versions of Challenger 2", nor are they "Chieftain based". Both Titan and Trojan are purpose designed and built specifically for the Armoured Engineer units of the Royal Engineers. They are in fact the first 'off the drawing board' designs for use in their role, as opposed to previous vehicles which were converted to the role from surplus gun tanks (both Centurion and Chieftain). They have been designed to replace the last of the Chieftain AVRE and AVLB. The Challenger 2 connection comes from the extensive use of parts bin items from the Challenger. These include powerplant, drive train, and suspension/track parts, all attached to a purpose built hull. This results in better commonality of spare parts with RAC units, less strain on Log Sp chain, and transferable skills between REME units supporting RAC/RE units. It also means that, unlike during Op Granby in '91, RE units with a responsibility for providing mobility/counter-mobility operations can at last keep up with the battle groups to which they are attached. Back then we struggled to keep up with the battle groups, who were operating Challenger 1, whilst we were driving a mix of Mk5 and Mk6 Chieftain based vehicles, and where the infantry were zipping about in Warrior IFV, we Sappers were miles behind, struggling to keep our 1960's FV432 APCs running at all, let alone keeping up with the infantry. In which case the photo in the OP referenced article is not a Trojan...or it it is, it's be retro-fitted with Chieftan running gear...
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Dr G
Original Poster
9,397 posts
112 months
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N Dentressangle said: They can't, I bought the last one 
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