'Pushing on' - explicit example of terrible airmanship.

[mrloudly]

Crossflow Kid said:

Eric Mc said:

They seem more intent on recording the incident than doing anything practical to help.

Morons.

Not moronic at all, in fact, in some respects I'd say it was very quick thinking. Photographic evidence of any crash and it's aftermath can often prove critical in determining cause, or exploiting learning points for future aviators.
Out of interest Eric, what's your experience and qualification of post-crash immediate actions?

Edited by Crossflow Kid on Thursday 9th August 19:47

Agreed, but how many times do we need to "exploit" the point that overloaded aircraft don't fly particularly well in hot and high environments?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38u3ZMNMyE0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLiZBsbWv-0

There are two others that I can think of but I can't find the links.

Sadly, IMHO. it's like showing motorists videos of roundabout rear end shunts, you ain't going to stop it...

[Mr Sparkle]

As a non pilot I thought when an aircraft was up everything would be OK since you don't have anymore drag from the wheels guess no more ground effect either, can anyone comment on how temperature effects lift? ie' will +10 deg C reduce lift by 5, 10, 15%?

Are many smaller aircraft that underpowered?

[magpie215]

Mr Sparkle said:

As a non pilot I thought when an aircraft was up everything would be OK since you don't have anymore drag from the wheels guess no more ground effect either, can anyone comment on how temperature effects lift? ie' will +10 deg C reduce lift by 5, 10, 15%?

Are many smaller aircraft that underpowered?

With high temps and low air density the engine will also deliver less power.

[eharding]

Mr Sparkle said:

As a non pilot I thought when an aircraft was up everything would be OK since you don't have anymore drag from the wheels guess no more ground effect either, can anyone comment on how temperature effects lift? ie' will +10 deg C reduce lift by 5, 10, 15%?

Are many smaller aircraft that underpowered?

Random performance graph grabbed from Google, in this case for a Lycoming, but the net effect is much the same for all normally-aspirated piston aero engines. Take a look at the right hand graph - shows power developed vs density altitude at different RPM settings. Effective density altitude in the case of this incident was apparently about 9500ft - so using the Lycoming example peak power at 2700rpm would be down from the sea-level 160hp to about 115hp. The numbers would be different for the Stinson, but the relative performance degradation would be of the same order.

The flip side is when you get cold days with high pressure - you can end up with a significant negative density altitude, and everything goes like the clappers.

[Mr Sparkle]

^^ Interesting, I knew there would be a penalty but didn't think it would be anywhere near that much.

[IforB]

In this pilot's opinion the bloke flying that needs a kick up the ar#e.

Anyone who hasn't been trained by a chimp should understand the issues with hot and high flying. If you don't, then you shouldn't be flying anything other than a paper aeroplane.

[CelicaGT]

Crossflow Kid said:

Not moronic at all, in fact, in some respects I'd say it was very quick thinking. Photographic evidence of any crash and it's aftermath can often prove critical in determining cause, or exploiting learning points for future aviators.
Out of interest Eric, what's your experience and qualification of post-crash immediate actions?

Edited by Crossflow Kid on Thursday 9th August 19:47

Regardless of whether or not it was a good idea to film in the aftermath of the crash, the real question is, was it a good idea (presumably days or weeks after the crash) to post this to the internet? Especially the part where he is filming the pilot laying on the ground covered in blood. Maybe it's of use to the accident investigation, but should it really be posted to the internet?

[Rowan138]

i think small low powered aircraft operating at high altitude airstrips should have some kind of emergency RATO system, so if height cannot be gained fast enough, the big red button is pushed and sufficient speed can be attained to climb.

[thehawk]

Another great marketing video for GoPro though

[RobDickinson]

Probably easier to leave a gopro recording than make the effort to stop it.

[anonymous-user]

CelicaGT said:

Crossflow Kid said:

Not moronic at all, in fact, in some respects I'd say it was very quick thinking. Photographic evidence of any crash and it's aftermath can often prove critical in determining cause, or exploiting learning points for future aviators.
Out of interest Eric, what's your experience and qualification of post-crash immediate actions?

Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 9th August 19:47

Regardless of whether or not it was a good idea to film in the aftermath of the crash, the real question is, was it a good idea (presumably days or weeks after the crash) to post this to the internet? Especially the part where he is filming the pilot laying on the ground covered in blood. Maybe it's of use to the accident investigation, but should it really be posted to the internet?

There's far worse out there. The curious bit is how footage of other, bigger crashes (BEA548 and Air France 4590 for example) gets bandied around quite merrily, where as this one's seen as either moronic or in poor taste.

[thehawk]

CelicaGT said:

Regardless of whether or not it was a good idea to film in the aftermath of the crash, the real question is, was it a good idea (presumably days or weeks after the crash) to post this to the internet? Especially the part where he is filming the pilot laying on the ground covered in blood. Maybe it's of use to the accident investigation, but should it really be posted to the internet?

Why not? I'd be interested in hearing your reasons, but I suspect you could hardly justify them at all.

-No one died
-You have a personal choice of whether to watch it and feel offended/distressed
-It has good shock value for other pilots and may actually save lives because they will remember this

[Pesty]

thehawk said:

CelicaGT said:

Regardless of whether or not it was a good idea to film in the aftermath of the crash, the real question is, was it a good idea (presumably days or weeks after the crash) to post this to the internet? Especially the part where he is filming the pilot laying on the ground covered in blood. Maybe it's of use to the accident investigation, but should it really be posted to the internet?

Why not? I'd be interested in hearing your reasons, but I suspect you could hardly justify them at all.

-No one died
-You have a personal choice of whether to watch it and feel offended/distressed
-It has good shock value for other pilots and may actually save lives because they will remember this

not just pilots.

how many people will see a thread about this. read on possible causes and next time they go on a little plane loaded with lots of people ask the pilot has he accounted for weight temperature and altitude/air density?

i will

[speedtwelve]

I reckon the majority of PPL holders are sufficiently aware of performance criteria and factor accordingly. There are exceptions out there, and on more than one occasion when I was instructing at civilian flying schools we had PPLs turn-up to hire things like Piper Warriors which they then attempted to fill full of fuel and then load with 4 bodies and baggage. A discreet word with the hirer and subsequent performance and loading calculations usually showed the aeroplane would have been out of both max take-off weight and centre-of-gravity limits, often by a country mile. On one occasion we had to suggest the pilot remove one passenger and go with about 20 litres less fuel just to get it down to max take-off weight...

Landing accidents in light aeroplanes are quite common as well, but for different reasons. Too high an approach speed, an aim point 1/3 down the runway and excessive float combined with a reluctance to throw it away and go-around often leads to great expense. I once knew a chap who had a slippery-ish aerobatic homebuilt with no flaps, but a large ventral airbrake. He was initially terrified of it, and flew down the approach as though he was trying to land an F104 Starfighter, using all of the runway when he touched down after the 4th approach. After a bit of dual instruction we knocked about 20 knots off his threshold speed!

[Chuck328]

Another fkwit who should not be holding a licence.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=161_1344467814

Same aircraft type I believe. After watching that clip I did think, surely not the same eejit....

[Dr Jekyll]

Chuck328 said:

Another fkwit who should not be holding a licence.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=161_1344467814

Same aircraft type I believe. After watching that clip I did think, surely not the same eejit....

All on the same take off.

[El Guapo]

The old fella will presumably lose his flying licence following this major cock-up. Are PPLs issued by the FAA in America?

[eharding]

El Guapo said:

The old fella will presumably lose his flying licence following this major cock-up. Are PPLs issued by the FAA in America?

Point of order - the preliminary report states he is a "certified commercial pilot" - so, a CPL, not a PPL.

[keith333]

Air pocket my arse! As the ground was getting closer the pilot was probably still pulling back on the stick effectively stalling into the ground. If he'd steered left at least he may have landed on some grass rather than trees. As op says terrible airmanship and very lucky no-one was killed.

[mrloudly]

eharding said:

El Guapo said:

The old fella will presumably lose his flying licence following this major cock-up. Are PPLs issued by the FAA in America?

Point of order - the preliminary report states he is a "certified commercial pilot" - so, a CPL, not a PPL.

Certified f.cking idiot!