BBC 4 tonight. Jet. When Britain Ruled the Skies
Discussion
Simpo Two said:
Dr Jekyll said:
This would explain why the Mustang escort fighters stuck with 6 x 0.5 inch guns
Perhgaps, but .50 also has much more stopping power than .303. And they only had to deal with fighters not bombers.The first part is the only reason, the fifty was (and still is) more than adequate, and was the default weapon for the USA, as the Americans had had all sorts of issues with the cannons in the P-38 and never really got to grips with cannon armament throughout WW2....and beyond, as seen by the 6 x fifty armament fit in the F-86 all through Korea.
.50 machine gun bullets definitely carry a heavier punch than .303 bullets.
The P-51 Mustang was not designed specifically to just engage against fighters - although the way in which they ended up being used as a bomber escort meant that was what happened.
The .50 machine gun was the standard machine gun fitted to almost all US fighters from the mid 1930s right until the advent of the F-86 Sabre jet fighter.
So the P-38 Lightning, the P-39 Airacobra, the P-40 family, the P-47 etc all had .50 machine guns. The P-39 and the P38 both carried a single cannon but they also retained their .50 machine guns.
The P-51 Mustang was not designed specifically to just engage against fighters - although the way in which they ended up being used as a bomber escort meant that was what happened.
The .50 machine gun was the standard machine gun fitted to almost all US fighters from the mid 1930s right until the advent of the F-86 Sabre jet fighter.
So the P-38 Lightning, the P-39 Airacobra, the P-40 family, the P-47 etc all had .50 machine guns. The P-39 and the P38 both carried a single cannon but they also retained their .50 machine guns.
I think that US viewpoint on the .50 was that it was adequate and more importantly, it meant it could be mass-produced, default ammunition. Given that pretty much every US fighting vehicle carried a .50 MG, plus the infantry too, this would have had a massive effect on production, logistics, training, maintenance, parts etc when trying to conduct a global war on multiple fronts.
Eric Mc said:
.50 machine gun bullets definitely carry a heavier punch than .303 bullets.
Indeed. Anyone who has ever seen a .50 round will know how big it is. It's not really that much smaller than a 20mm round (Note: 'Cannons' are generally accepted to be of 15mm and larger). Additionally, while there were 'specialist' incendiary rounds for the .303, eg the 'De Wilde', the amount of 'chemical effect' was relatively small owing to the size of the bullet. Contrast this with the .50" API round (Armour Piercing Incendiary) that was the std round used by late war US fighters.Eric Mc said:
The P-51 Mustang was not designed specifically to just engage against fighters - although the way in which they ended up being used as a bomber escort meant that was what happened.
It is worth pointing out that the Mustang I had a mixed armament of 4x .303 and 4x .50 guns. The early P40 Tomahawks were even worse off with 4x .303 and 2x .50 guns.
Chapter and verse on the Browning .50 calibre:
http://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/brown...
I watched the 'Top Ten Bombers' programme recently. It was entirely nay artificially metricated, scrupulously avoiding any imperial measures and giving all specs in metric. Apart from the howlers of quoting a range as '4,000 kilometers per hour' and a large caption saying 'DE VAVILLAND MOSQUITO', it could not avoid the .50 calibre machine gun. Whilst metric calibres were happily quoted, the .50 was determinedly called 'Point Five Oh' and no units.
http://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/brown...
I watched the 'Top Ten Bombers' programme recently. It was entirely nay artificially metricated, scrupulously avoiding any imperial measures and giving all specs in metric. Apart from the howlers of quoting a range as '4,000 kilometers per hour' and a large caption saying 'DE VAVILLAND MOSQUITO', it could not avoid the .50 calibre machine gun. Whilst metric calibres were happily quoted, the .50 was determinedly called 'Point Five Oh' and no units.
Eric Mc said:
I always thought that the British.303 ammunition was based on American .300 ammunition.
Wasn't the Browning originally an American gun?
That's right. It's the M1919 .300 which was converted to use in aircraft as the .30 caliber M2 AN and then a couple more modifications were made when it became the Browning .303 Mark II.Wasn't the Browning originally an American gun?
hidetheelephants said:
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
It is worth pointing out that the Mustang I had a mixed armament of 4x .303 and 4x .50 guns. The early P40 Tomahawks were even worse off with 4x .303 and 2x .50 guns.
Was that because it was originally a UK order? It's certainly a calibre peculiar to the brits.The first actual British order for Tomahawks (Tomahawk 11A) retained their US armanment of the 2 x wing mounted .30’s rather than Brirish .303’s, in addition to the 2 x 50 cals, but were fitted with British radios.
The next batch of Tomahawk 11B’s got the British 4 x .303 gun fit in the wings, but got US radios
We also replaced the US externally self-sealing fuel tanks on the 11B with our own internally self sealing tanks.
Eric Mc said:
Wasn't the Browning originally an American gun?
See the history section on the link some bloke posted earlier today:Simpo Two said:
IIRC the British .303 goes back to the Boer War if not before.TEKNOPUG said:
I think that US viewpoint on the .50 was that it was adequate and more importantly, it meant it could be mass-produced, default ammunition. Given that pretty much every US fighting vehicle carried a .50 MG, plus the infantry too, this would have had a massive effect on production, logistics, training, maintenance, parts etc when trying to conduct a global war on multiple fronts.
I thought the other issue was the US din't have a reliable 20mm cannon that could be mass produced. They did try them but had a lot of malfunctions. Combine this with the above and you have a great reason to keep the 0.50inch guns. I did read somewhere that the stopping power of a 20mm was 2.5 times that of a 0.50 inch round, and that's before and explosive effect!
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