85' Princess Yacht
Discussion
Benjaminpalma said:
Shame about the liberal use of self-tapping screws, etc, in these German, er I mean Taiwanese, boats...
I fear the days of proper wood screws, shanks, pilot holes etc, seem to be over. Just get yer cordless driver, offer the Screwfix gold triple-thrusted double-helical PTFE coated wizzer to the MDF, set max torque, zzzzzz....btbtbtbtbtmashmashmash... head disappears into the fluff, rivet, done. 'Countersinkers, pah, it's got little thingies under the head, see...' Zzzzzz....btbtbtbtbtmashmashmash... rivetMy first boat (built 1973) had a mahogany interior and was held together by proper brass wood screws. Second boat (built 2012) - MDF and 'zzzzz....btbtbtbtbtmashmashmash... rivet'. But I suppose as long as you look at the surface it doesn't matter too much.
Also note that 'brass' screws these days often seem no more than gold coloured cheese, so beware.
Benjaminpalma said:
mickrick said:
I run a Tiawanese plastic Gin palace, and it's a lot sturdier built than any of the U.K. or Italian production boats
Shame about the liberal use of self-tapping screws, etc, in these German, er I mean Taiwanese, boats...
The Taiwanese boat I look after is American.
Interesting thread, I can't ever see myself affording a big yacht unless my Euro numbers come in but I always like reading them and I have heard many times that the likes of Sunseekers, Princesses aren't worth the asking price and build quality is shoddy which always comes as a bit of a surprise.
All these companies seem to have no problem selling these yachts for huge amounts of money so is this just a case of mugging off the very rich and stupid or is this just a case of a boating snobbery with a dash of "they don't build them like they used to".
Surely not all the people buying these yachts are completely ignorant and blinded by the bling? What exactly is wrong with a Sunseeker for example which makes it such a bad boat and would the average punter really care that it won't be great in a gale force 6 wind?
If they are really bad, what is the alternative or what would be deemed to be a good boat\boat builder.
All these companies seem to have no problem selling these yachts for huge amounts of money so is this just a case of mugging off the very rich and stupid or is this just a case of a boating snobbery with a dash of "they don't build them like they used to".
Surely not all the people buying these yachts are completely ignorant and blinded by the bling? What exactly is wrong with a Sunseeker for example which makes it such a bad boat and would the average punter really care that it won't be great in a gale force 6 wind?
If they are really bad, what is the alternative or what would be deemed to be a good boat\boat builder.
BoatBuoy would be the one best placed to answer this but you are correct in that no boat manufacturer builds them like they used to.
In some cases this is a bad thing but there also many where it is a bloody good job they don't!
As manufacturing processes evolve it is generally expected that the product becomes better, when the truth is that very often the balance of cost versus quality tips the wrong way.
There are numerous examples, such as:
Where in an effort to keep a boat lightweight to reduce the size of engines required for a specific performance light fittings and the like will be generated from a material not fit or thick enough for longevity.
Hull layups are sprayed from hydraulic chopper guns as it cuts down health and safety concerns and speeds the process but the end product is not as strong or durable as traditional layups.
Sub contractors are used requiring a different method of quality control to the traditional employed workforce.
Off site manufacture of items to be delivered on a just in time basis with the onus on being able to drop in rather than fitted to the individual boat.
Bonding of tops and bottoms with fancy adhesives and sealants rather than additional layup to render additional useable liveaboard space.
The use of Mdf or cored plastics over Marine Ply and timbers sourced for sustainability rather than out and out quality.
And on and on.
The ones that tar a particular manufacturer or country with the brush of poor quality are only really painting a snapshot of time. For instance a 1980 Sunseeker versus a 1990, 2000, 2010 model are totally different animals as is the case with just about all manufacturers including small boat manufacturers such as Fletcher. They have all gone through periods of improvement but also degradation.
Also the definition of quality is very subjective. You could have a boat built to Lloyds A1 and some would look at it and say the quality of finish is atrocious as function is the priority over aesthetics.
Best just to remember that boats are really just a series of compromises and then try to match your priorities with the manufacturer.
In some cases this is a bad thing but there also many where it is a bloody good job they don't!
As manufacturing processes evolve it is generally expected that the product becomes better, when the truth is that very often the balance of cost versus quality tips the wrong way.
There are numerous examples, such as:
Where in an effort to keep a boat lightweight to reduce the size of engines required for a specific performance light fittings and the like will be generated from a material not fit or thick enough for longevity.
Hull layups are sprayed from hydraulic chopper guns as it cuts down health and safety concerns and speeds the process but the end product is not as strong or durable as traditional layups.
Sub contractors are used requiring a different method of quality control to the traditional employed workforce.
Off site manufacture of items to be delivered on a just in time basis with the onus on being able to drop in rather than fitted to the individual boat.
Bonding of tops and bottoms with fancy adhesives and sealants rather than additional layup to render additional useable liveaboard space.
The use of Mdf or cored plastics over Marine Ply and timbers sourced for sustainability rather than out and out quality.
And on and on.
The ones that tar a particular manufacturer or country with the brush of poor quality are only really painting a snapshot of time. For instance a 1980 Sunseeker versus a 1990, 2000, 2010 model are totally different animals as is the case with just about all manufacturers including small boat manufacturers such as Fletcher. They have all gone through periods of improvement but also degradation.
Also the definition of quality is very subjective. You could have a boat built to Lloyds A1 and some would look at it and say the quality of finish is atrocious as function is the priority over aesthetics.
Best just to remember that boats are really just a series of compromises and then try to match your priorities with the manufacturer.
Firstly, before I make any kind of comment here I must make it absolutely clear that anything that I write is purely my own personal opinion and is not the official stand point of either my current, or previous employer.
There's been some interesting comments on this thread, some I agree with, some I dispute. But lets be totally clear, today's boats are not the same as those of 30, 20, 10, or even 5 years ago. However, neither are cars. I'm currently restoring a 1951 Riley RMA (car) and there's some elements of that which really appeal in terms of manufacturing quality and material. Is it better than a modern car? No. It's very basic, very heavy, and very inefficient in just about every context - but I still think it's wonderful.
As has already been pointed out, steps have been made in boat design and construction to adjust to modern trends. Customers want more space and more equipment for their waterline length these days, and that adds complexity and and weight. Those in turn would add massive manufacturing penalties if the boats were still constructed in traditional methods. Developments in manufacturing have made it possible to advance the construction of a boat much like the automotive industry has. For example the metal thickness of the body panels on the Riley compared to my 2003 Audi are horrific.
Before I get carried away, let me put this into perspective. The boat industry is well behind the automotive curve, and probably always will be. As a designer this frustrates me on an hourly basis, but there just isn't the financial support to push it on in the leaps and bounds that it would take. Remember, the production boat industry is fighting a battle between not having the available funds of a custom build project and the customer expectations of production line manufacturing. Toyota, it aint! That said, this is where I look for my personal challenge. The restriction is akin to making good looking stuff in lego!
There's been some comments about the quality of various brands. I don't believe that there is currently a production boat builder that attains equal levels of quality throughout it's range. Again, to make an analogy to the automotive world; a car producer is able to 'design in' a level of quality through the engineering of individual components. Components which are then installed by someone who probably holds the title of 'assembly operative'. i.e. the door handle assembly he/she fits probably snap fits accuratly into position or correctly aligns with a pre-drilled fixing hole. In short it should only go together one way, the right way! For us (the marine sector) that is the stuff of dreams! Firstly our design teams are considerably smaller (in my case approx. 10-15 designers and engineers per project) when compared to a car (200-400 at a guess). Secondly the gestation period of the design is much shorter, I started my current project at the begining of Feburary and it will be launched at the London Boatshow in January, but talking to a delegation of Mercedes designers recently their equvilent programe is 4-5 years! We simply do not have the capacity or time to develop the product in anything near the same way. Boat builders employ 'boat builders' and a lot of the ownness is on the individual to make the part and fit it acurately, and sadly this means that for every point of human contact error can creep in. Ultimatly the level of control comes down to the team that builds a particular model, and this comes back to my point at the start of this paragraph. Quality for any given brand varies across it's own production lines or factory sites. For obvious reasons I can't point out particular models but each manufacturer has some real donkeys, in the same way that I've been highly impressed with at least one model from each of the UK's big four builders.
I'm always amazed that a guy who can afford to buy a Rolls Royce Phantom can also buy a 40ish foot sportscruiser for about the same money, yet the quality is worlds apart. Does he accept it? Seemingly, because I keep getting asked to design them!
As stated in an earlier post, a chance to do it properly is my ultimate goal. Time will tell.
Regards,
Olly
There's been some interesting comments on this thread, some I agree with, some I dispute. But lets be totally clear, today's boats are not the same as those of 30, 20, 10, or even 5 years ago. However, neither are cars. I'm currently restoring a 1951 Riley RMA (car) and there's some elements of that which really appeal in terms of manufacturing quality and material. Is it better than a modern car? No. It's very basic, very heavy, and very inefficient in just about every context - but I still think it's wonderful.
As has already been pointed out, steps have been made in boat design and construction to adjust to modern trends. Customers want more space and more equipment for their waterline length these days, and that adds complexity and and weight. Those in turn would add massive manufacturing penalties if the boats were still constructed in traditional methods. Developments in manufacturing have made it possible to advance the construction of a boat much like the automotive industry has. For example the metal thickness of the body panels on the Riley compared to my 2003 Audi are horrific.
Before I get carried away, let me put this into perspective. The boat industry is well behind the automotive curve, and probably always will be. As a designer this frustrates me on an hourly basis, but there just isn't the financial support to push it on in the leaps and bounds that it would take. Remember, the production boat industry is fighting a battle between not having the available funds of a custom build project and the customer expectations of production line manufacturing. Toyota, it aint! That said, this is where I look for my personal challenge. The restriction is akin to making good looking stuff in lego!
There's been some comments about the quality of various brands. I don't believe that there is currently a production boat builder that attains equal levels of quality throughout it's range. Again, to make an analogy to the automotive world; a car producer is able to 'design in' a level of quality through the engineering of individual components. Components which are then installed by someone who probably holds the title of 'assembly operative'. i.e. the door handle assembly he/she fits probably snap fits accuratly into position or correctly aligns with a pre-drilled fixing hole. In short it should only go together one way, the right way! For us (the marine sector) that is the stuff of dreams! Firstly our design teams are considerably smaller (in my case approx. 10-15 designers and engineers per project) when compared to a car (200-400 at a guess). Secondly the gestation period of the design is much shorter, I started my current project at the begining of Feburary and it will be launched at the London Boatshow in January, but talking to a delegation of Mercedes designers recently their equvilent programe is 4-5 years! We simply do not have the capacity or time to develop the product in anything near the same way. Boat builders employ 'boat builders' and a lot of the ownness is on the individual to make the part and fit it acurately, and sadly this means that for every point of human contact error can creep in. Ultimatly the level of control comes down to the team that builds a particular model, and this comes back to my point at the start of this paragraph. Quality for any given brand varies across it's own production lines or factory sites. For obvious reasons I can't point out particular models but each manufacturer has some real donkeys, in the same way that I've been highly impressed with at least one model from each of the UK's big four builders.
I'm always amazed that a guy who can afford to buy a Rolls Royce Phantom can also buy a 40ish foot sportscruiser for about the same money, yet the quality is worlds apart. Does he accept it? Seemingly, because I keep getting asked to design them!
As stated in an earlier post, a chance to do it properly is my ultimate goal. Time will tell.
Regards,
Olly
Thanks Boatbuoy, very interesting insite. I can certainly understand the problem of economies of scale and R&D funding when it comes to producing a "production" boat or stuff that is on the relatively cheaper end of the scale, obviously the market for boats and subsequently the companies that build them are on a much smaller scale.
However I find it very odd when quite often the same criticisms of cutting corners and shoddy workmanship is also aimed at the the pricier boats. Maybe it's just me but if I was paying a 7\8\9 figure sum to have a boat built, I'd expect there to be very little if any compromise in quality. For the price you are paying I don't think it would be too much of stretch to expect bespoke\parts and solutions to some of the problems of balancing good boat construction with weight\space requirements.
However I find it very odd when quite often the same criticisms of cutting corners and shoddy workmanship is also aimed at the the pricier boats. Maybe it's just me but if I was paying a 7\8\9 figure sum to have a boat built, I'd expect there to be very little if any compromise in quality. For the price you are paying I don't think it would be too much of stretch to expect bespoke\parts and solutions to some of the problems of balancing good boat construction with weight\space requirements.
mickrick said:
MOTORVATOR said:
Don't forget the refit costs. The wife doesn't. 
You tell your wife? 
And Simpo mine is nearing it's twentyth birthday, so a refit was justified, boats are not meant to look like that straight from the factory though.
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