RE: Vulcan to be grounded

[longshot]

ali_kat said:

DaveL485 said:

Gizmoish said:

XH558 in a few years, and XL426 at Southend... how many more are there sitting around growing mould?

XL360 down the road from me in Coventry, and another down the road in Wellesbourne.

beat me to it

The one at Wellesbourne runs, but doesn't fly.

Surely something can be done to recreate the expired parts? Cobble together from the 3 non flyers above?

I'm another that will do my best to help keep her in the skies if I win the lottery

To say it is unbelievably complicated is an understatement.
Anything can be accomplished with enough time and money but it would take lots of both sadly.

It would be nice to think that there were parts out there somewhere sat on a shelf that still have many cycles left on them but they were probably scrapped years ago.....but you never know.

[wedgeinald]

aeropilot said:

jason61c said:

Eric Mc said:

Nothing "supposed" about it.
Read this book -

Well thats the thing, the runway was totally useable for the duration of the conflict, 90% of bombs missed.

Suggest you spend some time reading up on the facts before posting drivel.

Or talk to Martin Withers, he is often to be found at the Vulcan Village, (unless he is flying the Delta Lady at the time), and I'm sure he'd be happy to chat about his first hand experience of the raids. Even if it might be for the X,000th time for him. He is (in stiff upper lip RAF parlance) a "nice chap", and quite approachable, but obviously can be a little busy on display days as well.

I'm sure he is as happy to be still flying a Vulcan as we are to see it in the air.

[Numeric]

I was really chuffed that my other half got to see the Vulcan for the first time at Farnborough this year, she simply had no idea it existed and was awed by the big beast - even more so when she realised how old it was (even older than me!!)and was designed by guys (yep) with a couple of rulers!

But as age has left me ever more weary, I can well understand that the sheer complexity of keeping a beast that was designed to have Ferrari maintenance even when new, against Skoda maintenance in old age, is becoming numbing. Far better to let it go gently to retirment, than suffer some hideous catastrophe that ruins forever a fabulous reputation.

After all, they weren't exactly the safest beasts in the world when new, and I have always been left to ponder what the guys in the back must have thought when the pilots disappeared!!

[marcosgt]

simonigrale said:

Aizle said:

simonigrale said:

We saw this a couple of weekends ago flying over Tamworth when it was doing a 3 hour tour of all the places that were involved in its development. Looked really intimidating in the sky. Awesome sight, I nearly crashed the car !!!

How d'you think the Argies felt?

stting bricks

I don't suppose they were even vaguely aware of it, in reality...

That was one of the most pointless stunts of modern warfare.

The Vulcan itself, on the other hand, is an awesome plane - I'm glad they got this one flying and the few times I've seen it, it's always impressive.

If you've not got up close to a Vulcan, go to the RAF Museum in Hendon where they have one.

M.

[jason61c]

aeropilot said:

Suggest you spend some time reading up on the facts before posting drivel.

Bit harsh, however if you've been to the Falklands and done all of the tours etc etc its a well known fact. We thought the runway was disabled, couldn't have been further from the truth.

Just to add I'm lucky enough to be well read of the actual facts

[Apache]

jason61c said:

aeropilot said:

Suggest you spend some time reading up on the facts before posting drivel.

Bit harsh, however if you've been to the Falklands and done all of the tours etc etc its a well known fact. We thought the runway was disabled, couldn't have been further from the truth.

Just to add I'm lucky enough to be well read of the actual facts

It would appear not. It was disabled, enough to prevent fast jets using it and heavy transports, what would you have done to improve that?

A certain A Waugh wrote an inflammatory article in the Telegraph suggesting that any award given to the RAF should resemble a polo after he came to the same conclusion as you did. He was subsequently informed of the facts and submitted an apology.

The crews' like you and your colleagues do not have a choice when serving and do whatever they are told, wether it is suicidal or not and proceed to carry that duty out to the best of their ability. That mission was extremely chancy and pushed the limits of endurance way beyond what was considered possible, yet they continued to put it together and do it. One bomb was all that was possible to deliver in the conditions and with the technology available, it is to their credit that it did exactly what was required.

[A Scotsman]

An old Ozzy friend of mine used to fly these. Said they handled like a fighter.

[DamienB]

Apache said:

It would appear not. It was disabled, enough to prevent fast jets using it and heavy transports, what would you have done to improve that?

Would those heavy transports be the C-130s that continued to operate from that very runway to the very last day of the war? Would the fast jets be the Macchi MB339s that operated from that very runway to nearly the last day of the war?

As impressive a feat of flying and logistics as the raid was, it did not disable the runway, and the runway was already unsuitable for most fast jet ops before the raid. The real reason the Argies didn't operate Skyhawks, Daggers or Mirages from the runway was that it was too short, the metal planking for extending it was stuck on a ship that didn't dare risk being torpedoed by approaching the Falklands, plus the airfield was considered too vulnerable to naval bombardment.

The raid's real success was in scaring the Argies into holding back some Mirage fighters to defend the mainland as there was a chance Vulcan raids could be carried out against mainland airfields.

[Eric Mc]

jason61c said:

aeropilot said:

Suggest you spend some time reading up on the facts before posting drivel.

Bit harsh, however if you've been to the Falklands and done all of the tours etc etc its a well known fact. We thought the runway was disabled, couldn't have been further from the truth.

Just to add I'm lucky enough to be well read of the actual facts

What types of aircraft used the runway?

Were they a serious threat to the task force?

The fact that the runway continued to be used on and off during the conflict is completely missing the point of these missions.

Are you a fully paid up member of the Sharkey Ward Fan Club?

[kdri155]

Such a shame but I like many understand why another piece of British engineering glory is coming to an end of its career, I have been lucky enough to witness it flying and is truly is a wonderful sight and sound.

Have a look at this clip and you will come away with goosebumps;

http://youtu.be/Djd1pPQZ_LE

[jason61c]

DamienB said:

Would those heavy transports be the C-130s that continued to operate from that very runway to the very last day of the war? Would the fast jets be the Macchi MB339s that operated from that very runway to nearly the last day of the war?

As impressive a feat of flying and logistics as the raid was, it did not disable the runway, and the runway was already unsuitable for most fast jet ops before the raid. The real reason the Argies didn't operate Skyhawks, Daggers or Mirages from the runway was that it was too short, the metal planking for extending it was stuck on a ship that didn't dare risk being torpedoed by approaching the Falklands, plus the airfield was considered too vulnerable to naval bombardment.

The raid's real success was in scaring the Argies into holding back some Mirage fighters to defend the mainland as there was a chance Vulcan raids could be carried out against mainland airfields.

Someone who knows the actual facts also.

The point is, engineering aside it can't be held in the same regard as the BBMF. Even when it did carry an A-bomb doctrine dictated that sub-surface launch was the best method for such an attack hence giving the A-bomb to the RN.

[Big News]

Eric Mc said:

Are you a fully paid up member of the Sharkey Ward Fan Club?

[DamienB]

Eric Mc said:

What types of aircraft used the runway?

C-130 transports - 30 movements or so. First landing after Black Buck 1 was on 6th May, crew simply landing to one side after seeing a bomb crater off to the other side. C-130s continued to bring equipment (including vehicles and artillery), ammunition, food and fuel to the islands throughout the war. They also evacuated casualties. Last flight to/from Stanley 13th June.

Electra transport - just one flight delivering supplies on 29th May. Various other one off missions like this from other types.

Fokker F28 transport - twelve supply missions from 16th May to 11th June.

Pucaras - attacking ground troops and helicopters. Last flight from Stanley 10th June.

MB-339 - attacking ground troops and task force ships. HMS Argonaut damaged. Recce of ships giving positions to later mainland-based raiders. Last flight from Stanley 3rd June (returning two aircraft to the mainland).

Eric Mc said:

Were they a serious threat to the task force?

Self evidently so.

Eric Mc said:

The fact that the runway continued to be used on and off during the conflict is completely missing the point of these missions.

Are you a fully paid up member of the Sharkey Ward Fan Club?

From Argentine accounts far more damage - and long lasting damage at that - was caused by the single Sea Harrier raid immediately after Black Buck 1, with hangars and aircraft destroyed or damaged and some personnel killed. The effects of that single raid were felt throughout the Argie's time on the islands.

[Apache]

Oh well, I'll have to bow to Damiens superior knowledge, still proud of my badge though

[gazapc]

ali_kat said:

Surely something can be done to recreate the expired parts? Cobble together from the 3 non flyers above?

They have already pillaged a number of key parts from the surviving ones but even so, you can't exactly borrow a main wing spar (if.one even existed with less fatigue as XH558 is the one in the best condition). I'm sure with near infinite money it could be done but unfortunately its just not there and there would be diminishing returns as more and more components expired.

[swanny200]

I love looking at the one at east fortune XM597, but it is just sitting there and rotting, I couldn't see any info on the plane and the fact that it is one of the most famous vulcans after XH558, it just sits there kind of forgotten about (mind you it was a good 3 years ago when I was there).

The concorde gets more exposure at East Fortune whereas another plane on a par with the concorde in terms of technical achievement in my opinion is left to sit in the open forlornly.

For those that don't know the history of 597, it was one of the planes that was supposed to be involved in the Falklands bombing runs, however it only made one successful run the other two were plagued with problems, the last of which could have started a diplomatic incident with Brazil when during midair refuelling the probe snapped off and 597 had to divert to Rio de Janeiro. As it was, the Vulcan had to climb into thinner air so as to conserve as much fuel as possible. The two missiles she was carrying were launched to reduce weight and drag, but one of these stuck. Mission orders and other important documents were jettisoned into the sea via the crew hatch. After a "Mayday" signal was sent to the Brazilian authorities clearance was given to XM597. The captain, Neil McDougall, landed the aircraft with only 2000lb of fuel remaining.

Not enough to complete a circuit of the airfield!

The Brazilian authorities impounded XM597 until the 10th of June but during their stay in Brazil both crew and aircraft were treated well. However the Brazilians did request the "jammed" missile as a souvenir of the Vulcan's visit.

[Cable]

Saw this a few years ago at the Victory Show near Leicester, doing a mock bombing run of the Falklands. It was actually nothing like the Falklands, but never the less was an awesome sight. Extremely low coming in and a huge fireball erupted from the ground, with a big enough shockwave that the pilot (who happened to be Martin Withers) actually felt it. People from the nearby villages actually called the emergency services, thinking the Vulcan had crashed because it was that low and the size of the fireball. The onsite fire brigade were somewhat perplexed when a host of local fire engines and police cars came hurtling on to the site with sirens ablaze.
Anyway, after that the Vulcan made various passes and sharp banking maneuvers, the big Rolls Royce Olympus engines working hard.

A great day I will never forget

Big thanks to the guys and girls who made this possible.

[405dogvan]

This is a day of national crisis surely - we're running out of ways of irritating the pricks who buy houses near airports and then complain about aircraft noise!?!?

How are we going to test-out car alarms in airport carparks now!?

Seriously - at the very least we need a national day of mourning whereby all cars with V6 or better engines run without silencers or something...

[IanMorewood]

jason61c said:

Well thats the thing, the runway was totally useable for the duration of the conflict, 90% of bombs missed. The Argentine forces moved mud piles onto the runway so they looked like craters from high above.

Usable for short field opps only so you could fly a C130 in and out Like the Argies did, but you couldn’t stick a squadron of Daggers there to act as air defence which would have given the Sea Harriers a serious problem.

[jason61c]

As above Macchi MB339s also flew until the last day.