Penlee lifeboat loss 31 years ago today

[Eric Mc]

Vipers said:

It beggars belief that the RNLI is run by donations only.

On the contrary. That is its strength.

[RacingPete]

Eric Mc said:

Vipers said:

It beggars belief that the RNLI is run by donations only.

On the contrary. That is its strength.

I was reading their accounts a few months back and was staggered to see they spend £3.5 million in costs to get the £5.7 million* donations every year.

* I can't remember the exact figures, but that was around the amounts.

They are an amazing service to this country.

[fatboy69]

Eric Mc said:

Vipers said:

It beggars belief that the RNLI is run by donations only.

On the contrary. That is its strength.

Couldn't agree more. Can you imagine the Whitehall bean counters if they ever got their hands on the RNLI? Can't have a lifeboat station there, or there, or there....

As so it would go on.

The good thing about the RNLI is that they ar accountable to no one. The crews do what they because they want to do it. No one forces them to man the boats, no one says you can't do this because it might be dangerous.

The crews now that they might not make it back when they go out on a shout but they care not a stuff. They put others lives before their own & for that we should be truly grateful.

Even those of us who have never needed the services of the RNLI.

Because, one day, we might just need them.

RIP to the eight brave men of the Penlee Lifeboat.

[Athlon]

Part of the problem was Moreton was an up and coming skipper who had just been given command of a brand new ship, if he had accepted the open form tow it would have cost the company and huge bill and it is believed he was worried he would loose his command, they had figured the problem and were pretty sure they could get the engines running, that belief plus a miscalculation over the distance to the shore sealed their fate.

If you read the accounts of that day, when the Lizard boat launched to search for the Solomon Brown, the cox waited to launch as the boat was in desperate risk of getting washed off the slip on the way down, he timed the launch release as a wave hit the boathouse and chased it down the slip, some say it is one of the best slip launches ever done as in theory the boat could not launch into the sea driving in the way it was, it must of been a desperate crew who wanted to help their friends that drove them on.

The Sennon boat tried but failed to get around Lands End, where the two sea runs meet they made it over one 60 foot wave and down the other side but could not get further, if they had stayed out there would have been two crews lost that night.

The boat from the Scilly Isles faired better, they had one of the (then) new and state of the art Arun class boats, it is said that on the way over, running with the sea they actually surfed a wave for 1/4 of a mile! scary stuff.

The Lizard Lifeboat was holed that night though she made it home.

A word should also be mentioned about the helicopter crew out of Culdrose, they also showed supreme skill and bravery and went far beyong what they should have done, backing into the cliffs pushing agains 100 mph winds (outside the operating envelope) several time the mast of the ship almost hit the rotors as they tried to help.

Brave beyond words all of them.

[Benjaminpalma]

This is a film the RNLI commissioned (IIRC) the following year. It features the Arun stationed at Yarmouth, Isle of Wight. My dad made it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6awoiYlyuc&fea...

[rowey200]

Fishtigua said:

I remember it with a bit of a thumping heart and dusty eyes.

Very brave men.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeIX0VnUMKo

Thanks for sharing...it must have passed me by when originally aired. Such a sad sad event, but one that highlights the commitment and bravery of lifeboat crews around our shores.

Coming from a small village on the North Devon coast, I have grown up around the RNLI and the amazing work they do. I have friends who currently crew, and if I was still living by the coast I would love to get more involved - as it is my current efforts don't stretch much more than regular donations. I hope one day to take a more active role!

Amazing charity, amazing people

[Getragdogleg]

I was 7 when it happened and was living in Newlyn and can remember the news going round the village the following day and the sense of loss everybody felt. Newlyn is a small place and everybody knew the men who had perished. We youngsters walked the cliffs and looked at the wreck and it is something I will never ever forget, a smashed ship lying on its side on Granite teeth, it was probably a big ship but it looked tiny in the waves.

I have good friends in the RNLI now who go out in all weathers to help those in peril on the sea. Brave men all of them and when the launch signal goes off you always hope they all come back safe and sound.

[IroningMan]

Fishtigua said:

I remember it with a bit of a thumping heart and dusty eyes.

Very brave men.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeIX0VnUMKo

Not seen that before - thanks for pointing it out.

[Bacardi]

ShampooEfficient said:

Vipers said:

It beggars belief that the RNLI is run by donations only.

I think their line is that they don't want all the st that comes with being Government funded.

Can you imagine it if it was government funded? Just like when some firemen weren't able to rescue some poor sod who fell in a duck pond due to 'health and safety', no lifeboat would ever be launched. There seem to be two sorts of people in the world, bureaucratic jobs worth aholes and then your have selfless volunteers who put their lives on the line.... guess which ones I have total respect for.....

[IroningMan]

This may be nothing more than an outright display of ignorance on my part, but looking at the footage of the Union Star in the days after the tragedy - wouldn't it have been possible to survive on board her?

I'm not suggesting that Moreton should have called-off the rescue, or anything like that, but she didn't break up for days or more: under those circumstances could you expect to stay alive?

[Munter]

Vipers said:

It beggars belief that the RNLI is run by donations only.

Talking of donations...

www.justgiving.co.uk/rnli

[Athlon]

IroningMan said:

This may be nothing more than an outright display of ignorance on my part, but looking at the footage of the Union Star in the days after the tragedy - wouldn't it have been possible to survive on board her?

I'm not suggesting that Moreton should have called-off the rescue, or anything like that, but she didn't break up for days or more: under those circumstances could you expect to stay alive?

Repots stated the living quarters were not wet so maybe they could have survived, however it was not just water they were dealing with, the ship was being hammered and I doubt many could have survived the constant impacts and throwing about, regardless of the fact no one knew what would happen when she hit the rocks, she cold have just broken up there and then.

[carreauchompeur]

The thing about "salvage" is very interesting. Would someone helping a vessel in distress really claim it? Seems a little harsh!

[Mr_B]

TTwiggy said:

Mr_B said:

As someone who knows nothing about such nautical things, can someone help me with a few question after watching the docu ?
What was going to be the cost/implications if he accepted a tow from the tug ?
If he was 8 miles out ( leaving side if this was accurate ) , how short a time is it possible to drift into shore ?

In answer to your first question, he could forfeit his entire vessel and cargo under salvage law. The RNLI essentially undertakes that they will not claim salvage, and most people giving someone a tow into port will also forgo any rights (I towed someone in once and jokingly mentioned salvage to the skipper - he went a nasty shade of off-white )

In terms of your second question, it would depend on what current was running. Where I sail, at the top of the flow it's usually a maximum of 6knts on shore, but windage is generally from the South West, so that will serve to keep you away from land. So if you know the distance to land, it's easy maths to work out how long before you hit it, if you have no power/sails! I would imagine there was rather more than 6knts that night, given the wind conditions, and it was a lee shore (wind driving you towards land), so all things being equal, less than 1 hour and possibly less than half an hour.

Edited by TTwiggy on Thursday 20th December 16:31

Thanks. Had no idea the idea of taking a tow in such a dire situation could lead to a claim on the vessel and or contents. That right there seems to be a large part of why it happened. Sounds a bit like trying to want to push your car out of the 3rd lane of the M25 for fear of PC Plod or the AA taking your car if they recover it.

[matchmaker]

RichS said:

Do they ALWAYS put out to sea, in literally any weather conditions As in they never say "it's a bit too rough tonight lads, let's just hide behind the Health & Safety/Risk Assessment"? Unimaginably brave, total respect. I've been thinking about this all day.

No. I am a former lifeboatman and RNLI Station Honorary Secretary. When I took over the SHS job I was told by the RNLI Inspector that if I had a real concern that I would be putting my crews lives at unnecessary risk I could refuse to order a launch. If I did so nobody - but nobody - could override my decision. He also told me that the RNLI would back such a decision 100%.

He had good reason to say this - he had been the inspector that covered Penlee at the time of the disaster.

Edited by matchmaker on Friday 21st December 17:50

[Tyre Smoke]

matchmaker said:

RichS said:

Do they ALWAYS put out to sea, in literally any weather conditions As in they never say "it's a bit too rough tonight lads, let's just hide behind the Health & Safety/Risk Assessment"? Unimaginably brave, total respect. I've been thinking about this all day.

No. I am a former lifeboatman and RNLI Station Honorary Secretary. When I took over the SHS job I was told by the RNLI Inspector that if I had a real concern that I would be putting my crews lives at unnecessary risk I could refuse to order a launch. If I did so nobody - but nobody - could override my decision. He also told me that the RNLI would back such a decision 100%.

He had good reason to say this - he had been the inspector that covered Penlee at the time of the disaster.

Edited by matchmaker on Friday 21st December 17:50

But the reality, I suspect in EVERY station, would be "Can we launch?" not "Should we launch, it looks a bit rough?"

[shunaphil]

Tyre Smoke said:

matchmaker said:

RichS said:

Do they ALWAYS put out to sea, in literally any weather conditions As in they never say "it's a bit too rough tonight lads, let's just hide behind the Health & Safety/Risk Assessment"? Unimaginably brave, total respect. I've been thinking about this all day.

No. I am a former lifeboatman and RNLI Station Honorary Secretary. When I took over the SHS job I was told by the RNLI Inspector that if I had a real concern that I would be putting my crews lives at unnecessary risk I could refuse to order a launch. If I did so nobody - but nobody - could override my decision. He also told me that the RNLI would back such a decision 100%.

He had good reason to say this - he had been the inspector that covered Penlee at the time of the disaster.

Edited by matchmaker on Friday 21st December 17:50

But the reality, I suspect in EVERY station, would be "Can we launch?" not "Should we launch, it looks a bit rough?"

Thankfully, these days the quality of kit and boats the RNLI have available is frankly (and quite rightly) the very best that money can buy - and pretty awesome. I shudder to think what would happen if a government dept got hold of it.

I live offshore and run my own boat to and from the mainland, sometimes in fairly 'serious' weather and have had a few moments in my time, so know first hand how scary it can be. I have the utmost respect for the local lifeboatmen (persons?) - our local station is one of the busiest in the UK - in particular they are totally non-judgemental when people get into trouble - even the daftest recreational boater doesnt really get a bking - just helpful advice.

Keep donating.

That Penlee documentary from BBC4 is very sobering.

[matchmaker]

Tyre Smoke said:

matchmaker said:

RichS said:

Do they ALWAYS put out to sea, in literally any weather conditions As in they never say "it's a bit too rough tonight lads, let's just hide behind the Health & Safety/Risk Assessment"? Unimaginably brave, total respect. I've been thinking about this all day.

No. I am a former lifeboatman and RNLI Station Honorary Secretary. When I took over the SHS job I was told by the RNLI Inspector that if I had a real concern that I would be putting my crews lives at unnecessary risk I could refuse to order a launch. If I did so nobody - but nobody - could override my decision. He also told me that the RNLI would back such a decision 100%.

He had good reason to say this - he had been the inspector that covered Penlee at the time of the disaster.

Edited by matchmaker on Friday 21st December 17:50

But the reality, I suspect in EVERY station, would be "Can we launch?" not "Should we launch, it looks a bit rough?"

They will launch if humanly possible. I've seem our crew set off in a Force 12 more than once. On one shout they were on, the pilot of the Coastguard chopper reported they were meeting seas that he estimated as 20-25 METRES.

But in the end of the day I would not have sent them out if I had had a real feeling that they would come to harm. It could be a hard decision sometimes.

[GBGaffer]

Benjaminpalma said:

This is a film the RNLI commissioned (IIRC) the following year. It features the Arun stationed at Yarmouth, Isle of Wight. My dad made it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6awoiYlyuc&fea...

And I met him this morning in M&S

[GBGaffer]

matchmaker said:

RNLI Station Honorary Secretary.

LOM these days surely?