What will the Government buy if the F35 is cancelled?
Discussion
The article potrays it as something new! Looks cool though:
http://planelopnik.kinja.com/f-35b-at-sea-dont-nee...
http://planelopnik.kinja.com/f-35b-at-sea-dont-nee...
aeropilot said:
Except that TSR2 was UK only politics, and UK only industry.
F-35 is a whole bigger 'must not be seen to fail' USA political project - far too many people's political lives depend on it - so they will not can it. For the yanks there is no other option.
UK politicans have already reversed the decision back to the B again from the C, so aren't going to chop it - regardless whether it's the right tool for the job or not.
The services will 'make do' with what they are given - as usual.
Maybe concorde might be a better comparison, as it was built and flown despite, but my thoughts concern the sheer politics and infighting that surrounds the project rather than anything else. F-35 is a whole bigger 'must not be seen to fail' USA political project - far too many people's political lives depend on it - so they will not can it. For the yanks there is no other option.
UK politicans have already reversed the decision back to the B again from the C, so aren't going to chop it - regardless whether it's the right tool for the job or not.
The services will 'make do' with what they are given - as usual.
gwm said:
The article potrays it as something new! Looks cool though:
http://planelopnik.kinja.com/f-35b-at-sea-dont-nee...
Looks like the US Marines haven't any Ski ramps?http://planelopnik.kinja.com/f-35b-at-sea-dont-nee...
telecat said:
gwm said:
The article potrays it as something new! Looks cool though:
http://planelopnik.kinja.com/f-35b-at-sea-dont-nee...
Looks like the US Marines haven't any Ski ramps?http://planelopnik.kinja.com/f-35b-at-sea-dont-nee...
The USMC have never used ski-ramps with their Harriers either, and so won't with F-35B. The use of rolling landings for F-35B is a UK requirement only as well.
RizzoTheRat said:
How bit are their carriers compared to ours, and how much difference does it make to payload?
The New and controversial USS America is about 80 feet shorter than the QEII Carrier. A Typical ship they will operate from is the Wasp class which are 100 feet shorter and are more HMS Ocean Style Carriers with amphibious assault capability.aeropilot said:
Nope, UK only.
The USMC have never used ski-ramps with their Harriers either, and so won't with F-35B. The use of rolling landings for F-35B is a UK requirement only as well.
The USMC pilots enjoyed the ski jump almost as much as the wardroom bar when embarked upon the Invincible class. However, the grown ups have always placed more value on the extra helicopter spot on what they regard as landing ships first and foremost.The USMC have never used ski-ramps with their Harriers either, and so won't with F-35B. The use of rolling landings for F-35B is a UK requirement only as well.
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?9488...
F35/F-16 "trials"
http://aviationweek.com/defense/f-35-flies-against...
From the comments....
"The DOT&E reported that every F-35 variant struggled with uncommanded “wing drop” when maneuvering hard at high subsonic and transonic speeds. This is particularly dangerous because uncommanded—which is to say, uncontrolled—wing drop can result in crashes and an inability to outmaneuver attacking planes or missiles in combat. The report published in January noted that all three variants needed “modifications of the control laws to control the effects of transonic flight [wing drop] and buffet maneuvering.”
Unfortunately, the required control law modifications will reduce the maneuverability of the F-35, only exacerbating the plane’s performance problems in this area. The F-35C’s wing drop problem is “worse than other variants” and future testing will incorporate spoilers installed in the wings to address the problem. Lockheed Martin publicly reported designing add-on spoilers in 2009, and DOT&E described plans to consider how to incorporate these new spoilers in the test plan in its 2012 report. However, add-on spoilers, such as those added to the F-18E/F to address a similar problem, almost certainly will decrease all-around stealth as well as increase weight and drag, thereby further decreasing maneuverability, acceleration, and range. Moreover, much of the extensive maneuver testing needed to validate fixes to the wing-drop problem is currently impossible due to the speed and g limits imposed by the continuing engine fan-rubbing problem.
..... & lots more...
http://aviationweek.com/defense/f-35-flies-against...
From the comments....
"The DOT&E reported that every F-35 variant struggled with uncommanded “wing drop” when maneuvering hard at high subsonic and transonic speeds. This is particularly dangerous because uncommanded—which is to say, uncontrolled—wing drop can result in crashes and an inability to outmaneuver attacking planes or missiles in combat. The report published in January noted that all three variants needed “modifications of the control laws to control the effects of transonic flight [wing drop] and buffet maneuvering.”
Unfortunately, the required control law modifications will reduce the maneuverability of the F-35, only exacerbating the plane’s performance problems in this area. The F-35C’s wing drop problem is “worse than other variants” and future testing will incorporate spoilers installed in the wings to address the problem. Lockheed Martin publicly reported designing add-on spoilers in 2009, and DOT&E described plans to consider how to incorporate these new spoilers in the test plan in its 2012 report. However, add-on spoilers, such as those added to the F-18E/F to address a similar problem, almost certainly will decrease all-around stealth as well as increase weight and drag, thereby further decreasing maneuverability, acceleration, and range. Moreover, much of the extensive maneuver testing needed to validate fixes to the wing-drop problem is currently impossible due to the speed and g limits imposed by the continuing engine fan-rubbing problem.
..... & lots more...
Mojocvh said:
F35/F-16 "trials"
http://aviationweek.com/defense/f-35-flies-against...
From the comments....
"The DOT&E reported that every F-35 variant struggled with uncommanded “wing drop” when maneuvering hard at high subsonic and transonic speeds. This is particularly dangerous because uncommanded—which is to say, uncontrolled—wing drop can result in crashes and an inability to outmaneuver attacking planes or missiles in combat. The report published in January noted that all three variants needed “modifications of the control laws to control the effects of transonic flight [wing drop] and buffet maneuvering.”
Unfortunately, the required control law modifications will reduce the maneuverability of the F-35, only exacerbating the plane’s performance problems in this area. The F-35C’s wing drop problem is “worse than other variants” and future testing will incorporate spoilers installed in the wings to address the problem. Lockheed Martin publicly reported designing add-on spoilers in 2009, and DOT&E described plans to consider how to incorporate these new spoilers in the test plan in its 2012 report. However, add-on spoilers, such as those added to the F-18E/F to address a similar problem, almost certainly will decrease all-around stealth as well as increase weight and drag, thereby further decreasing maneuverability, acceleration, and range. Moreover, much of the extensive maneuver testing needed to validate fixes to the wing-drop problem is currently impossible due to the speed and g limits imposed by the continuing engine fan-rubbing problem.
..... & lots more...
Those comments from the DOT&E report aren't about the January trials though are they? That is the report from earlier flight trials, before the flight control system modifications were implemented.http://aviationweek.com/defense/f-35-flies-against...
From the comments....
"The DOT&E reported that every F-35 variant struggled with uncommanded “wing drop” when maneuvering hard at high subsonic and transonic speeds. This is particularly dangerous because uncommanded—which is to say, uncontrolled—wing drop can result in crashes and an inability to outmaneuver attacking planes or missiles in combat. The report published in January noted that all three variants needed “modifications of the control laws to control the effects of transonic flight [wing drop] and buffet maneuvering.”
Unfortunately, the required control law modifications will reduce the maneuverability of the F-35, only exacerbating the plane’s performance problems in this area. The F-35C’s wing drop problem is “worse than other variants” and future testing will incorporate spoilers installed in the wings to address the problem. Lockheed Martin publicly reported designing add-on spoilers in 2009, and DOT&E described plans to consider how to incorporate these new spoilers in the test plan in its 2012 report. However, add-on spoilers, such as those added to the F-18E/F to address a similar problem, almost certainly will decrease all-around stealth as well as increase weight and drag, thereby further decreasing maneuverability, acceleration, and range. Moreover, much of the extensive maneuver testing needed to validate fixes to the wing-drop problem is currently impossible due to the speed and g limits imposed by the continuing engine fan-rubbing problem.
..... & lots more...
Saying "much of the extensive maneuver testing needed to validate fixes to the wing-drop problem is currently impossible due to the speed and g limits" seems out of date when flight trials are validating those fixes by flying at +9g / -3g and 110 degree AOA.
Mave said:
Mojocvh said:
F35/F-16 "trials"
http://aviationweek.com/defense/f-35-flies-against...
From the comments....
"The DOT&E reported that every F-35 variant struggled with uncommanded “wing drop” when maneuvering hard at high subsonic and transonic speeds. This is particularly dangerous because uncommanded—which is to say, uncontrolled—wing drop can result in crashes and an inability to outmaneuver attacking planes or missiles in combat. The report published in January noted that all three variants needed “modifications of the control laws to control the effects of transonic flight [wing drop] and buffet maneuvering.”
Unfortunately, the required control law modifications will reduce the maneuverability of the F-35, only exacerbating the plane’s performance problems in this area. The F-35C’s wing drop problem is “worse than other variants” and future testing will incorporate spoilers installed in the wings to address the problem. Lockheed Martin publicly reported designing add-on spoilers in 2009, and DOT&E described plans to consider how to incorporate these new spoilers in the test plan in its 2012 report. However, add-on spoilers, such as those added to the F-18E/F to address a similar problem, almost certainly will decrease all-around stealth as well as increase weight and drag, thereby further decreasing maneuverability, acceleration, and range. Moreover, much of the extensive maneuver testing needed to validate fixes to the wing-drop problem is currently impossible due to the speed and g limits imposed by the continuing engine fan-rubbing problem.
..... & lots more...
Those comments from the DOT&E report aren't about the January trials though are they? That is the report from earlier flight trials, before the flight control system modifications were implemented.http://aviationweek.com/defense/f-35-flies-against...
From the comments....
"The DOT&E reported that every F-35 variant struggled with uncommanded “wing drop” when maneuvering hard at high subsonic and transonic speeds. This is particularly dangerous because uncommanded—which is to say, uncontrolled—wing drop can result in crashes and an inability to outmaneuver attacking planes or missiles in combat. The report published in January noted that all three variants needed “modifications of the control laws to control the effects of transonic flight [wing drop] and buffet maneuvering.”
Unfortunately, the required control law modifications will reduce the maneuverability of the F-35, only exacerbating the plane’s performance problems in this area. The F-35C’s wing drop problem is “worse than other variants” and future testing will incorporate spoilers installed in the wings to address the problem. Lockheed Martin publicly reported designing add-on spoilers in 2009, and DOT&E described plans to consider how to incorporate these new spoilers in the test plan in its 2012 report. However, add-on spoilers, such as those added to the F-18E/F to address a similar problem, almost certainly will decrease all-around stealth as well as increase weight and drag, thereby further decreasing maneuverability, acceleration, and range. Moreover, much of the extensive maneuver testing needed to validate fixes to the wing-drop problem is currently impossible due to the speed and g limits imposed by the continuing engine fan-rubbing problem.
..... & lots more...
Saying "much of the extensive maneuver testing needed to validate fixes to the wing-drop problem is currently impossible due to the speed and g limits" seems out of date when flight trials are validating those fixes by flying at +9g / -3g and 110 degree AOA.
I think it is significant that there will be an IOT this year. Just what the aircraft will be capable of remains, shall we say, uncertain...
Mojocvh said:
So what? If the Jan trial had even been in the slightest positive LM would have had it all over the sheets....as it is the delays and program deadline failures now mean block 5 in 2035! Block 4 is now block 4.1, 4.2 yadda yadda delay heaped upon benchmark failure.
The plug won't be pulled though as too much at stake.I could see the 'C' model getting chopped though as there are no customers for it other than the USN and they don't really want it.
They are already looking at ordering more Super H's.......
They've still got to fix the major issue with the F135.....and there's still no real sign of that almost a year on in the programme......
Hey ho......
Mojocvh said:
Mave said:
Mojocvh said:
F35/F-16 "trials"
http://aviationweek.com/defense/f-35-flies-against...
From the comments....
"The DOT&E reported that every F-35 variant struggled with uncommanded “wing drop” when maneuvering hard at high subsonic and transonic speeds. This is particularly dangerous because uncommanded—which is to say, uncontrolled—wing drop can result in crashes and an inability to outmaneuver attacking planes or missiles in combat. The report published in January noted that all three variants needed “modifications of the control laws to control the effects of transonic flight [wing drop] and buffet maneuvering.”
Unfortunately, the required control law modifications will reduce the maneuverability of the F-35, only exacerbating the plane’s performance problems in this area. The F-35C’s wing drop problem is “worse than other variants” and future testing will incorporate spoilers installed in the wings to address the problem. Lockheed Martin publicly reported designing add-on spoilers in 2009, and DOT&E described plans to consider how to incorporate these new spoilers in the test plan in its 2012 report. However, add-on spoilers, such as those added to the F-18E/F to address a similar problem, almost certainly will decrease all-around stealth as well as increase weight and drag, thereby further decreasing maneuverability, acceleration, and range. Moreover, much of the extensive maneuver testing needed to validate fixes to the wing-drop problem is currently impossible due to the speed and g limits imposed by the continuing engine fan-rubbing problem.
..... & lots more...
Those comments from the DOT&E report aren't about the January trials though are they? That is the report from earlier flight trials, before the flight control system modifications were implemented.http://aviationweek.com/defense/f-35-flies-against...
From the comments....
"The DOT&E reported that every F-35 variant struggled with uncommanded “wing drop” when maneuvering hard at high subsonic and transonic speeds. This is particularly dangerous because uncommanded—which is to say, uncontrolled—wing drop can result in crashes and an inability to outmaneuver attacking planes or missiles in combat. The report published in January noted that all three variants needed “modifications of the control laws to control the effects of transonic flight [wing drop] and buffet maneuvering.”
Unfortunately, the required control law modifications will reduce the maneuverability of the F-35, only exacerbating the plane’s performance problems in this area. The F-35C’s wing drop problem is “worse than other variants” and future testing will incorporate spoilers installed in the wings to address the problem. Lockheed Martin publicly reported designing add-on spoilers in 2009, and DOT&E described plans to consider how to incorporate these new spoilers in the test plan in its 2012 report. However, add-on spoilers, such as those added to the F-18E/F to address a similar problem, almost certainly will decrease all-around stealth as well as increase weight and drag, thereby further decreasing maneuverability, acceleration, and range. Moreover, much of the extensive maneuver testing needed to validate fixes to the wing-drop problem is currently impossible due to the speed and g limits imposed by the continuing engine fan-rubbing problem.
..... & lots more...
Saying "much of the extensive maneuver testing needed to validate fixes to the wing-drop problem is currently impossible due to the speed and g limits" seems out of date when flight trials are validating those fixes by flying at +9g / -3g and 110 degree AOA.
I think it is significant that there will be an IOT this year. Just what the aircraft will be capable of remains, shall we say, uncertain...
If you've got news regarding new delays or benchmark failures then fine, lets hear about them.
"So going from last years g limitations out to 9g this year;"
Outstanding! What engine are they using now?
"If you've got news regarding new delays or benchmark failures then fine, lets hear about them."
"The first post-IOC upgrade, Block 4, has changed shape twice in less than two years. The original plan was to roll out numbered block upgrades at two-year intervals. Early in 2014, Air Force Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan, director of the JSF program office, disclosed that Block 4 would be split into Block 4A and 4B, the latter reaching IOC in 2024—so that anything post-Block 4 would have to wait until 2026...
Apparently, some customers had a problem with this. A new plan was unveiled this spring, dividing Block 4 into four segments, 4.1 through 4.4. Block 4.1, mostly software, arrives in late 2019, two years earlier than 4A would have done—but it seems likely that it will include overspill from Block 3F. Block 4.4 is due for IOC in mid-2025...
...The idea is to “accelerate incremental capabilities,” according to a program document. The Pentagon and its partners have many requirements and desires between now and 2027, and a process has been put in place to prioritize them. Common items take precedence over customer-unique upgrades unless the program’s Joint Executive Steering Board decrees otherwise. Priorities include anti-surface warfare, with the AGM-154C-1 net-enabled version of the Joint Standoff Weapon, and moving-target attack with the laser-guided version of the Joint Direct Attack Munition. Block 4 also includes the B61-12 nuclear bomb...
There is a long list of other new weapons: cruise missiles from Norway and Turkey, and Britain’s three-phase Selective Precision Effects At Range (Spear) project. The U.K. wants two new MBDA air-to-air missiles (AAM): Meteor and a new version of the Advanced Short-Range AAM......
So there you go, the two most important defensive weapons for the FAA are so far back on the back burner the gas is turned off...
Ref.. http://aviationweek.com/defense/opinion-time-defin...
registration is "free"
Outstanding! What engine are they using now?
"If you've got news regarding new delays or benchmark failures then fine, lets hear about them."
"The first post-IOC upgrade, Block 4, has changed shape twice in less than two years. The original plan was to roll out numbered block upgrades at two-year intervals. Early in 2014, Air Force Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan, director of the JSF program office, disclosed that Block 4 would be split into Block 4A and 4B, the latter reaching IOC in 2024—so that anything post-Block 4 would have to wait until 2026...
Apparently, some customers had a problem with this. A new plan was unveiled this spring, dividing Block 4 into four segments, 4.1 through 4.4. Block 4.1, mostly software, arrives in late 2019, two years earlier than 4A would have done—but it seems likely that it will include overspill from Block 3F. Block 4.4 is due for IOC in mid-2025...
...The idea is to “accelerate incremental capabilities,” according to a program document. The Pentagon and its partners have many requirements and desires between now and 2027, and a process has been put in place to prioritize them. Common items take precedence over customer-unique upgrades unless the program’s Joint Executive Steering Board decrees otherwise. Priorities include anti-surface warfare, with the AGM-154C-1 net-enabled version of the Joint Standoff Weapon, and moving-target attack with the laser-guided version of the Joint Direct Attack Munition. Block 4 also includes the B61-12 nuclear bomb...
There is a long list of other new weapons: cruise missiles from Norway and Turkey, and Britain’s three-phase Selective Precision Effects At Range (Spear) project. The U.K. wants two new MBDA air-to-air missiles (AAM): Meteor and a new version of the Advanced Short-Range AAM......
So there you go, the two most important defensive weapons for the FAA are so far back on the back burner the gas is turned off...
Ref.. http://aviationweek.com/defense/opinion-time-defin...
registration is "free"
Edited by Mojocvh on Thursday 11th June 14:03
aeropilot said:
hairyben said:
Mr Whippy said:
I've been watching some cool videos recently on the F22, Su27 family, Eurofighter, and Tornado developments. None were without hiccups along the way.
But it does seem those facing the F35 are symptomatic of floating briefs causing unintended consequences, meaning many more hiccups.
The F35 is going to be so expensive in the end that it'll be fielded in too few numbers to really be any use, especially when weapons systems seem to be advancing way faster than aircraft generational updates.
Dave
The F35B story reminds me a bit of the TSR2, insofar as the politic might just crush the plane before it can live.But it does seem those facing the F35 are symptomatic of floating briefs causing unintended consequences, meaning many more hiccups.
The F35 is going to be so expensive in the end that it'll be fielded in too few numbers to really be any use, especially when weapons systems seem to be advancing way faster than aircraft generational updates.
Dave
F-35 is a whole bigger 'must not be seen to fail' USA political project - far too many people's political lives depend on it - so they will not can it. For the yanks there is no other option.
UK politicans have already reversed the decision back to the B again from the C, so aren't going to chop it - regardless whether it's the right tool for the job or not.
The services will 'make do' with what they are given - as usual.
Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff