What will the Government buy if the F35 is cancelled?

[Talksteer]

IanH755 said:

donutsina911 said:

With respect, much of that is nonsense

As someone with years of operational experience on both types, no it really isn't. Every point above is valid from a current (post 2009) operational standpoint, but I understand you disagree with that and, for the 2005-2009 era, you wouldn't be that wrong but like I said, post 2009 lots of things changed regarding our TTP's in operational theatres, 90% of which would have ruled the GR9 out of use instantly until a whole bucket load of time/money had been invested in upgrading the aircraft again.

I loved working on the Harrier fleet and the specific Pegasus noise will stay with me forever but as fantastic as it was for it's time, it just couldn't keep pace with the evolving battlefield needing newer weapons/systems in the same way that the Tornado GR4 could (although TBF I still preferred the SNIPER pod footage quality to the Litening III stuff we got to see after the aircrew had employed weapons). In the end the military could see that basic fact too and made the correct choice to scrap it.

One point I will clarify though, yes the GR9 could carry 4x PWIV's until 2009 when the ground threat was increased and the ROE changed meaning it became a requirement to carry lower collateral weapons (AGM-65/Brimstone/Cannon) and an AIRCM pod (anti-SAM pod) which meant GR9's post 2009 would be carrying a maximum of 2x PWIV, 1x AGM-65 (still too big to use vs Brimstone) and 1x AIRCM pod (not Harrier certified at the time).

I had to look that pod AIRCM pod up and it has to be said it really shows up British defence procurements ability to frame requirements that result in underarmed platforms. The same company will supply a weapons pylon with the same system integrated, so you could carry a triple loading of Paveway iv and carry a protection pod on one pylon.

[telecat]

In another twist to the on going Saga of US Fighters they are now talking about ditching the F15C fleet and replacing it with F16's with uprated systems. Due to the cock up of not buying enough F-22's it seems that the F-15C fleet is requiring refurbishment and the USAF aren't keen on doing it.

[Trevatanus]

telecat said:

In another twist to the on going Saga of US Fighters they are now talking about ditching the F15C fleet and replacing it with F16's with uprated systems. Due to the cock up of not buying enough F-22's it seems that the F-15C fleet is requiring refurbishment and the USAF aren't keen on doing it.

I thought that there was talk of the F22 line restarting, or has that been scrapped?

[MartG]

Trevatanus said:

telecat said:

In another twist to the on going Saga of US Fighters they are now talking about ditching the F15C fleet and replacing it with F16's with uprated systems. Due to the cock up of not buying enough F-22's it seems that the F-15C fleet is requiring refurbishment and the USAF aren't keen on doing it.

I thought that there was talk of the F22 line restarting, or has that been scrapped?

Probably way too expensive - especially as you just know they wouldn't be satisfied unless they spent a few $billion updating the design at the same time

[aeropilot]

Trevatanus said:

telecat said:

In another twist to the on going Saga of US Fighters they are now talking about ditching the F15C fleet and replacing it with F16's with uprated systems. Due to the cock up of not buying enough F-22's it seems that the F-15C fleet is requiring refurbishment and the USAF aren't keen on doing it.

I thought that there was talk of the F22 line restarting, or has that been scrapped?

That's the problem with that idea....the F-22 line, tooling, systems etc., have already been scrapped (or most of it has) so the cost figures being talked about to re-instate were making that idea look like a non-starter.

[telecat]

Personally it's just the latest twist in the bad decisions made on which Fighters to keep or build. The Super Tomcat was always a better design than the Super Hornet. I cannot see why anybody else would want to buy the thing. It totally screwed up the Hornet design and left it with flaws because somebody though they'd only need to increase the scale on the drawings. The F15 remains a superior Design to the F16 and is still in production and development. Why Update the F16 when a New F15 would be a better long term bet?

And Trump has requested that SECAF look into restarting the F22. The merry go round spins again.

Edited by telecat on Friday 31st March 14:21

[aeropilot]

telecat said:

Why Update the F16 when a New F15 would be a better long term bet?

Operating costs.

Updated F-16's have much cheaper through life costs than the F-15, and they are multi-role, which is why the F-15C fleet looks like getting significantly cut with OSD of 2025, as C model is single role.

The F-15E fleet will continue in service for a lot longer......until there are enough F-35A's in service.

[MartG]

Just came across this April 1st joke

http://thepipeline.info/blog/2017/04/01/trump-orde...

[Evanivitch]

Similar from UK Defence Journal.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-cancel-f-35-pur...

[Trevatanus]

Be ironic if us going to war with Spain happens.
If we wait a couple of years, we could see F35's going head to head with AV8B's!

[ou sont les biscuits]

Trevatanus said:

Be ironic if us going to war with Spain happens.
If we wait a couple of years, we could see F35's going head to head with AV8B's!

If the Spaniards buy a couple of these Zircon Missile thingies, it ain't happening

We'll have created the world's most expensive artificial reef.

[hidetheelephants]

ou sont les biscuits said:

Trevatanus said:

Be ironic if us going to war with Spain happens.
If we wait a couple of years, we could see F35's going head to head with AV8B's!

If the Spaniards buy a couple of these Zircon Missile thingies, it ain't happening

We'll have created the world's most expensive artificial reef.

By and large NATO members don't shop with the opposition.

[Gandahar]

The whole premise of cancellation at this stage is null and void, so why is the thread ongoing?

[tuffer]

Gandahar said:

The whole premise of cancellation at this stage is null and void, so why is the thread ongoing?

What if Trump throws a mental and cancels the project?

[aeropilot]

tuffer said:

Gandahar said:

The whole premise of cancellation at this stage is null and void, so why is the thread ongoing?

What if Trump throws a mental and cancels the project?

F-35 as a project isn't going to get cancelled....because of the A model, which is what the vast majority of the numbers will be.

BUT....we aren't buying the A-model, we are buying the B, and only us and the USMC are buying that (plus the Italians chipping in with a handful - maybe) and its the B and the USN's C-model that are the really expensive ones with problems, so its still not beyond possible that to save the project as a whole, the B and C models (due to the USMC and USN having a fall back option) to get canned to save money to save the A-model which is the one most are buying.

The USN are already ordering extra new build Superhornets because of the C being so far behind and beset with issues, and despite the USMC 'Harrier' mafia's loud voice in US Govt., they don't actually 'need' the B-model, as they aren't going to go anywhere hot without a USN battle group in tow, so why do they need first day stealth STOVL capability?
While its looking less likely now that the B will get canned, its still not impossible it (and the C)might do to save the A.
If that happens we (the UK) will be screwed and we'll own the 2 largest, most expensive helicopter carriers in the world.

[telecat]

Even the A model isn't going to do what the USAF want it to do hence the decision to look at restarting the F22 line or buying New F-15C's and F16's

[WelshChris]

May have been discussed already, but surely this isn't the best plan?...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39501299

Given the probable escalation of tension between Erdogan and (just about) everyone - This has to be madness right?

[aeropilot]

WelshChris said:

May have been discussed already, but surely this isn't the best plan?...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39501299

Political 'sweetners' have never been the best plan, but its the politicians that hold the purse strings, so.......

The whole F-35 clusterfk program is a 'political sweetner' though.

[Mr Will]

So electronic repairs will be carried out in the UK, but engine work will be done in Turkey. What happens when you have a plane that needs both? What happens when a hard to diagnose problem might be either?

[tuffer]

Mr Will said:

So electronic repairs will be carried out in the UK, but engine work will be done in Turkey. What happens when you have a plane that needs both? What happens when a hard to diagnose problem might be either?

I read the Turkey element as deep servicing not diagnostics and repair.