What will the Government buy if the F35 is cancelled?

[aeropilot]

Steve vRS said:

donutsina911 said:

aeropilot said:

onyx39 said:

donutsina911 said:

We've still got 14 Sea Harriers that apparently work...didn't know that

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activi...

So the engines are limited to they cannot take off, presumably, that could be reversed and the aircraft pressed back into service should the need ever arise?

In a word - no.

Actually in 7 words, the answer is "sure could buddy, stranger things have happened ; )" From an ex 800 NAS WAFU, now flying F/18's..

If you remember back around 33 years ago, some clever RAF types managed to get an obsolete Vulcan to drop a bomb on a small bit of land a few thousand miles away so it is not beyond imagination....

The difference is that the Vulcan was still in service (just) with (just) all it's associated infrastructure support from within the RAF and from BAe and RR.

The SHAR has been out of service for almost 10 years and no support infrastructure exists with the RAF/RN anymore and nor does it exist from BAe/RR anymore for the MOD (albeit BAe/RR still support the USMC, but the SHAR and AV8B are different animals in many respects)

It doesn't matter how you dress it up, it ain't gonna happen under any circumstances

[Mr Whippy]

So it's a huge carrier that should have had catapulted ac support, f35a among others... But instead we just get a handful of choppers.

Oh dear.

UK gov needs a bking on this one imo.

They should insta cancel the F35, buy a load of av8b for now, and get some UK industries building a whole new AC with 'made up' money... Whatever it takes. Get some cash into UK industries!

[hidetheelephants]

Mr Whippy said:

So it's a huge carrier that should have had catapulted ac support, f35a among others... But instead we just get a handful of choppers.

Oh dear.

UK gov needs a bking on this one imo.

They should insta cancel the F35, buy a load of av8b for now, and get some UK industries building a whole new AC with 'made up' money... Whatever it takes. Get some cash into UK industries!

Where are the AV8s coming from? It's been out of production for 10+ years. Optimistically a whole new aircraft would take 10 years to reach prototyping and 15+ to get to production. F35 already generates a large amount of work for UK PLC. F35C is the CATOBAR capable version, the F35A is land based.

[Mave]

Mr Whippy said:

UK gov needs a bking on this one

Which one?
We have a fundamental problem IMHO with the way long term decisions are made and changed by relatively short term governments

[ralphrj]

Mr Whippy said:

They should insta cancel the F35, buy a load of av8b for now, and get some UK industries building a whole new AC with 'made up' money... Whatever it takes. Get some cash into UK industries!

IIRC one of the reasons the F35B was originally chosen was the amount of it that is made in the UK (the lifting fan).

[Mr Whippy]

It just seems like a perfect example of the need for change in planning and procurement, and holding manufacturers more accountable.

And the UK making a lift fan, wow. How about a whole aircraft instead?


As for 15 years to get an aircraft in service, I'm sure it could be done sooner throwing money at it. Especially if the brief isn't so pointlessly wide.

Why we bail out bankers and print money that disappears down the pan when we could be reinvigorating our industries and investing in the future is beyond me.


And which government? Both.

All politicians and decision makers need to be bked and people sacked where they've made bad choices. I'm fed up of them screwing up trivial stuff but defence is another thing entirely, especially at these cost levels and the longevity these systems are in place for!

[IanMorewood]

Mr Whippy said:

So it's a huge carrier that should have had catapulted ac support, f35a among others... But instead we just get a handful of choppers.

Oh dear.

UK gov needs a bking on this one imo.

They should insta cancel the F35, buy a load of av8b for now, and get some UK industries building a whole new AC with 'made up' money... Whatever it takes. Get some cash into UK industries!

Yup a trio of CVN (nuclear powered fleet carrier) with at least four cats and space to run at least forty aircraft would have been ideal apart from the staffing and decommissioning costs. In the real world a pair of smaller conventional carriers operating 20 stol aircraft wouldn't be so bad if we still had a stol airplane to fly off deck in the first ten years of the carriers being in service, I have little doubt that eventually the f35b will turn out better than a Harrier of any description, trouble is that eventually could be quite a while.

[davepoth]

The stupid thing is that the two carriers we've bought are plenty big enough to throw F/A 18s or any other naval jet off of, providing that we'd made provision to fit catapults. Now, call me cynical, but I can't help but wonder whether the prime contractor (BAE) had a bit of a vested interest in making sure that the planes that flew off the carrier were made at least in part by BAE.

[aeropilot]

Mr Whippy said:

As for 15 years to get an aircraft in service, I'm sure it could be done sooner throwing money at it.

They are already throwing an obscene amount of money at it.....and they will continue to do so as too many politicians and chiefs of staff that have sold their sole to the devil that is called Dave.

[jimbobsimmonds]

davepoth said:

The stupid thing is that the two carriers we've bought are plenty big enough to throw F/A 18s or any other naval jet off of, providing that we'd made provision to fit catapults. Now, call me cynical, but I can't help but wonder whether the prime contractor (BAE) had a bit of a vested interest in making sure that the planes that flew off the carrier were made at least in part by BAE.

Quite possibly. But BAE build bits for all 3 F-35 variants. It's RR which build the liftfan in the B variant.

[jimbobsimmonds]

davepoth said:

The stupid thing is that the two carriers we've bought are plenty big enough to throw F/A 18s or any other naval jet off of, providing that we'd made provision to fit catapults. Now, call me cynical, but I can't help but wonder whether the prime contractor (BAE) had a bit of a vested interest in making sure that the planes that flew off the carrier were made at least in part by BAE.

Quite possibly. But BAE build bits for all 3 F-35 variants. It's RR which build the liftfan in the B variant.

[Elroy Blue]

davepoth said:

The stupid thing is that the two carriers we've bought are plenty big enough to throw F/A 18s or any other naval jet off of, providing that we'd made provision to fit catapults. Now, call me cynical, but I can't help but wonder whether the prime contractor (BAE) had a bit of a vested interest in making sure that the planes that flew off the carrier were made at least in part by BAE.

This is indeed the basis of a report (which I can't find the llnk to now) on the cat/trap debacle. It is suggested that BAE made the inclusion of catapults so expensive that it was unaffordable. This ensured that there was no chance of anything but the F-35. Whatever the truth, we've come out with an inferior ship than we should have had.

[aeropilot]

Elroy Blue said:

This ensured that there was no chance of anything but the F-35B.

EFA

[Yertis]

Elroy Blue said:

This is indeed the basis of a report (which I can't find the llnk to now) on the cat/trap debacle. It is suggested that BAE made the inclusion of catapults so expensive that it was unaffordable. This ensured that there was no chance of anything but the F-35. Whatever the truth, we've come out with an inferior ship than we should have had.

A scandal, really.

[Mr Whippy]

Yertis said:

A scandal, really.

It should be treason to do this, given its intended purpose is to degrade potential for purpose for financial gain.

[MartG]

Mr Whippy said:

Yertis said:

A scandal, really.

It should be treason to do this, given its intended purpose is to degrade potential for purpose for financial gain.

In 30 years time it'll probably be revealed that some MoD politician behind the decision ended up in a lucrative position on BAe's board after he left politics...

[mcdjl]

MartG said:

Mr Whippy said:

Yertis said:

A scandal, really.

It should be treason to do this, given its intended purpose is to degrade potential for purpose for financial gain.

In 30 years time it'll probably be revealed that some MoD politician behind the decision ended up in a lucrative position on BAe's board after he left politics...

Or that it really would cost a shed load to redesign modules you've already started making, bin the old bits and make the new ones. Thats not to rule out your option as a bonus on top though.
Theres a difference between scheme design for either (where we started) and detail design for either. The later of anything costs a lot more. The first can be done on an envelope (ish).

[ralphrj]

mcdjl said:

Or that it really would cost a shed load to redesign modules you've already started making, bin the old bits and make the new ones. Thats not to rule out your option as a bonus on top though.
Theres a difference between scheme design for either (where we started) and detail design for either. The later of anything costs a lot more. The first can be done on an envelope (ish).

I wouldn't deny that it costs a lot to redesign stuff you've already started making but the issue that irritates a lot of observers is that back in 2002 the Government was offered a STOVL carrier for £2bn or a STOVL/CATOBAR carrier that was designed "for but not with" catapults and arrestors for £3bn. The Government chose the more expensive flexible option. However, although we had agreed to pay 50% more for the flexibility apparently no serious effort was put into designing the carrier with the potential for cats and traps. It feels like the taxpayer has been conned into paying 50% more for the same ship.

[Mr Whippy]

Crony capitalism at it's best, and we stand back and let it happen.

And now were left with stty defence for decades vs what we could have had!

Heads should literally be rolling!

[davepoth]

It wouldn't surprise me if CATOBAR was added at the first major refit, in the name of operational flexibility with the rest of NATO. The way things are going, I wouldn't be totally surprised if she still doesn't have F-35s aboard by that point.