Renovating an old wooden sports boat, am I mad?
Discussion
Huntsman said:
Fishtigua said:
There was an article in Wooden Boatbuilder about using an air staple-gun with the setting that leaves the staples standing up 1/4" that could be pulled out with pliers. The guy said it saved him hours of faffing about.
Or you pop the staples in over the top of a match, break the match, pliers and pull.1) Use metal staples, with some method of removing them. Running a strip of nylon strap (that stuff you use to 'wrap' around boxes), punch staples through that, the layer, and in to the hull. Leave a tail, once set and dried, pull tail to remove staples in a row. Neat and elegant, but a bit fiddly. Nylon strapping won't stick to epoxy so it's easily removable. Car seat belts would do much the same thing.
2) Use small screws, driven through a chunk of wood or plastic to hold in place, then remove after. It'll leave a tiny hole, but epoxy will fill that for the next layer.
3) Vacuum bagging. A little complex, but probably the best overall way to do it. As I understand it, you put the strip in place, cover it with a sheet of plastic, seal all around with duct tape, and fit a powerful vacuum pump to remove the air. This pushes the piece down hard on to the layer below, wait to set, remove plastic (again, doesn't stick to epoxy). This method leaves no holes in the strip so it looks great, but it's very fiddly and time consuming as you have to do it a small bit at a time.
4) My current favourite, nylon brad nails. You need to use a special nylon nail gun and special nylon brad nails. Because they're not metal, they won't rust and you can just leave them in place. Fit piece, knock in a brad nail every 1-2", sand down any that sit proud of the surface before starting the next layer.
Right now, 4) appeals most as being the quickest way, with 2) as a backup for the trickier parts that need moving in to place before setting (and perhaps adjustment).
I've read a forum where a guy managed to cut his ply strips and lay up 3/4 of the hull in about 5 hours. That's really good going. He said the best bit about plastic nails is once they're in, you can immediately start on the next bit, and even the next layer before waiting for it to set, as the nails are more than strong enough to hold it all in place.
With no time constraints, I'd go for 3) at least for the top layer, but I'm not totally sure yet. I'll see how the ply goes on first and then make the call.
Wing Commander said:
Quick question, from an engineer and from a keen boater, but having never done any boat building before...
If you are essentially laminating several layers together, on top of each other, how do you consolidate all the layers together without having large air pockets between? If the surface was completely flat, or supported from behind, you could have some large weights on to do it, but these shapes are compound curves with just the ribbing behind.
Thanks, and congratulations on the work so far - looks immense!
To add to that stuff about fixings, there's a bit more to it.If you are essentially laminating several layers together, on top of each other, how do you consolidate all the layers together without having large air pockets between? If the surface was completely flat, or supported from behind, you could have some large weights on to do it, but these shapes are compound curves with just the ribbing behind.
Thanks, and congratulations on the work so far - looks immense!
On the large, flat surfaces (bottom near the transom, for example), you cut your ply in to relatively wide strips, maybe 12-24" wide (you can apparently fit entire sheets of ply at once, but I doubt that'll work single handed), applying a bit at a time. When you get nearer the difficult bendy bits at the front, use thinner strips of maybe 6 or even 2-3" to make sure you get the required bend.
The nails/staples/whatever fixings you use will be enough to hold the strip in place while the epoxy sets. Once the epoxy is hard, the nails/staples are useless and can be removed (if they're metal, you definitely want to take them out otherwise they'll go rusty, leaving nasty stains inside your nice new hull).
To best get the air pockets out, you use plenty of epoxy on each layer and put it on with a notched trowel. Similar to tiling a wall, throw it on, then spread it evenly across the surface with the notched bit making sure all the gaps are filled.
The notches on the spreader I got from West Systems are about 5mm deep, which should give you an idea of how much epoxy you get through on a 7m long boat!
RichB said:
Out if interest, do you use these nails or staples on the final layer too? Doesn't that leave tiny holes all over the mahogany or don't they show after the final varnishing?
This is where the 'vacuum bagging' comes in, it leaves no holes at all. Screws will leave small holes too so that's out, the only options might be headless nylon nails or similar, but that involves another, different nail gun (c. £200).So, final layer, I really don't know yet. I'll get the ply on first and see how it goes, by which time I should have a good idea of how it'll work out.
Realistically, you would probably get away with staples, removing them, and then using coloured wood filler to tidy up the holes before final fairing and varnish. Not totally sure yet though.
rolando said:
mickrick said:
rolando said:
You probably know this, but you can make your own filler by mixing sawdust from the wood you're using, in this case mahogany, with epoxy. This will give you as good a match as you could ask for.
I tried that once, but it didn´t work for me, as the wetted out sawdust is a lot darker in colour.
mickrick said:
rolando said:
mickrick said:
rolando said:
You probably know this, but you can make your own filler by mixing sawdust from the wood you're using, in this case mahogany, with epoxy. This will give you as good a match as you could ask for.
I tried that once, but it didn´t work for me, as the wetted out sawdust is a lot darker in colour.Huntsman said:
hidetheelephants said:
Plastic nails; every day's a school day. Chocolate teapots must be just around the corner! 
When I did the keel on Playtime I very nearly used engineering plastic bolts, in fact, the only reason I didn't was not a technical reason, but a marketing one, I was quite sure that nobody would ever buy a Fairey boat with plastic keel bolts. The Marelon skin fittings look good.http://raptornails.com/
When you think about it, strength aside (although they do seem to have plenty of it), it's a very sensible material for boat building. All the properties of bronze in salt water, but a fraction of the cost.
I would think it's only a matter of time before it becomes heavily used in the boat building industry.
If somebody told you 30 years ago we'd be flying around in plastic planes by the early 2000s, you would have thought them crazy.
Simpo Two said:
Bonefish Blues said:
So why am I drawn to that tired little boat?
CharacterHistory
Romance
With all due respect to Maser, a new build has none of these (yet!).
It's only my sensible head that made me start a new build, it will ultimately be more usable with a modern engine and construction, but I would have preferred something with a history.
Another one, looks like an easier restoration job.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331249835551
Not quite my cup of tea, but might be interesting to anybody else who's been inspired by my cack-handed attempts so far.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331249835551
Not quite my cup of tea, but might be interesting to anybody else who's been inspired by my cack-handed attempts so far.
Holy smokes, thread resurrection.
Sadly not much done for the past four months, out of the country and then hectic with work, but hoping to get back in to this over the next few weeks.
As such, plastic nail gun (never thought I'd be typing that phrase) ordered from the USA so I need to get cracking with the fairing so the bottom can start going on.
I'm not expecting too many major issues with the next bit, I already have a good idea of how it's going to go together and there's nothing that stands out as being particularly difficult, just a bit of a long slog to get it all flat and ready to lay up.
A couple of wooden boats have come up on eBay over the past few weeks, one in particular was luvverly but still not quite what I originally wanted. Unless the perfect boat comes up, I'll keep plodding away at this one.
Sadly not much done for the past four months, out of the country and then hectic with work, but hoping to get back in to this over the next few weeks.
As such, plastic nail gun (never thought I'd be typing that phrase) ordered from the USA so I need to get cracking with the fairing so the bottom can start going on.
I'm not expecting too many major issues with the next bit, I already have a good idea of how it's going to go together and there's nothing that stands out as being particularly difficult, just a bit of a long slog to get it all flat and ready to lay up.
A couple of wooden boats have come up on eBay over the past few weeks, one in particular was luvverly but still not quite what I originally wanted. Unless the perfect boat comes up, I'll keep plodding away at this one.
Plastic nail gun is here. What an odd bit of kit. The gun is normal looking (apparently you can use a 'normal' nail gun but the remnants of plastic jam it up within a few rows of nails so you have to clean it, etc. before starting again, whereas this 'special' gun can cope with the plastic dust), but the nails are very odd indeed.
Just like a line of office staples, but nails. The only difference is that these are bendy. Not a little bit, but a lot, you can easily bend them 90 degrees along a length of nails. Without doubt the oddest material to use on a boat build, but it does indeed look like it'll do the job.
Gonna have a good clear out to make some space over the next couple of weeks, then it'll be sanding/planing in earnest in preparation for putting some ply on the bottom....
Just like a line of office staples, but nails. The only difference is that these are bendy. Not a little bit, but a lot, you can easily bend them 90 degrees along a length of nails. Without doubt the oddest material to use on a boat build, but it does indeed look like it'll do the job.
Gonna have a good clear out to make some space over the next couple of weeks, then it'll be sanding/planing in earnest in preparation for putting some ply on the bottom....
Back to work today.
If this thread is a bit dull recently, I'm afraid that's because the build is a but dull too. Lots of niggly jobs to do without any real signs of progress, so it basically looks the same despite several hours work.
Transom is now all built up (five sections to do and have to wait to cure between each one - very laborious), battens now all lined up and glued in (over 200 notches to check, double check and triple check to make sure they're lined up properly - fail on this and the hull won't be flat, causing all sorts of issues later), and I just realised the upper sheer clamps needed to be fitted before I could start laying up the hull. Half way through that now.
With sheer clamps done I need a few more solid gold (ok, silicon bronze, but they cost the bloody same) screws and can then finally finish the fairing. That's another problem, you can't just get the fittings locally, it all has to be ordered well in advance. Even the nail gun came from America and took two weeks (mostly customs).
However, from a bit of research, the laying up is apparently really quick if you use the plastic nails so we should start actually seeing some progress over the next few weeks.
If this thread is a bit dull recently, I'm afraid that's because the build is a but dull too. Lots of niggly jobs to do without any real signs of progress, so it basically looks the same despite several hours work.
Transom is now all built up (five sections to do and have to wait to cure between each one - very laborious), battens now all lined up and glued in (over 200 notches to check, double check and triple check to make sure they're lined up properly - fail on this and the hull won't be flat, causing all sorts of issues later), and I just realised the upper sheer clamps needed to be fitted before I could start laying up the hull. Half way through that now.
With sheer clamps done I need a few more solid gold (ok, silicon bronze, but they cost the bloody same) screws and can then finally finish the fairing. That's another problem, you can't just get the fittings locally, it all has to be ordered well in advance. Even the nail gun came from America and took two weeks (mostly customs).
However, from a bit of research, the laying up is apparently really quick if you use the plastic nails so we should start actually seeing some progress over the next few weeks.
Engine is already decided! Modern crate engine with all new parts, quick and easy to fit with little else to do other than bolt it in place and wire it up. Exotic stuff is all very well, but the damned thing will never see the water if i start getting involved in marinising another engine, temping though it is. If anything, I'd try a 4.2 Maserati engine from a QP...
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