RB-29 'over-exposed' crash site.

[TIGERSIX]

dr_gn said:

aeropilot said:

mybrainhurts said:

dr_gn said:

Dr Jekyll said:

dr_gn said:

There's a Hawker Hunter too, crashed in '92 or '93 IIRC. Unfortunately it's 30ft underground...and the pilot's still with it.

Was that a privately owned one?

Yes:

http://www.peakdistrictaircrashes.co.uk/pages/peak...

Went for a walk today near the crash site (never been to it). It's a strange thought that someone's still down there.

You sure about that? They recovered the ejector seat.

They recovered both ejector seats from G-BTYL (formerly XL595) as well some cockpit instrumentation and other parts, so I'd be very surprised if they left the remains of Wallace Cubitt in the big hole that he created when he speared into the ground at high speed back in 1993.

The AAIB report suggests that only parts of the seats were recovered:

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/octo...

According to the above mentioned book by Pat Cunningham (who is ex-RAF and commercial pilot - his books do seem very well researched):

"Attempts were made at salvage and recovery, but in the end Mr Cubitt's body was left interred with his machine. In part becasue of this, and in the abscence of any radio report regarding mechanical malfunction, determining the casue of the accident had to be somewhat speculative."

I can confirm as a long time acquaintance of Wally Cubitt , he was left at his families request with the wreck of his plane,Wally was a very well known colourful character ,a highly accomplished crop duster pilot, who used to spray my fathers farm crops in the 70's, by trade he was a carpenter but most importantly a very accomplished pilot.

[dr_gn]

TIGERSIX said:

dr_gn said:

aeropilot said:

mybrainhurts said:

dr_gn said:

Dr Jekyll said:

dr_gn said:

There's a Hawker Hunter too, crashed in '92 or '93 IIRC. Unfortunately it's 30ft underground...and the pilot's still with it.

Was that a privately owned one?

Yes:

http://www.peakdistrictaircrashes.co.uk/pages/peak...

Went for a walk today near the crash site (never been to it). It's a strange thought that someone's still down there.

You sure about that? They recovered the ejector seat.

They recovered both ejector seats from G-BTYL (formerly XL595) as well some cockpit instrumentation and other parts, so I'd be very surprised if they left the remains of Wallace Cubitt in the big hole that he created when he speared into the ground at high speed back in 1993.

The AAIB report suggests that only parts of the seats were recovered:

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/octo...

According to the above mentioned book by Pat Cunningham (who is ex-RAF and commercial pilot - his books do seem very well researched):

"Attempts were made at salvage and recovery, but in the end Mr Cubitt's body was left interred with his machine. In part becasue of this, and in the abscence of any radio report regarding mechanical malfunction, determining the casue of the accident had to be somewhat speculative."

I can confirm as a long time acquaintance of Wally Cubitt , he was left at his families request with the wreck of his plane,Wally was a very well known colourful character ,a highly accomplished crop duster pilot, who used to spray my fathers farm crops in the 70's, by trade he was a carpenter but most importantly a very accomplished pilot.

I reckon some kind of memorial stone should be put next to the site. I wonder if his family ever requested one?

[srob]

TIGERSIX said:

I can confirm as a long time acquaintance of Wally Cubitt , he was left at his families request with the wreck of his plane,Wally was a very well known colourful character ,a highly accomplished crop duster pilot, who used to spray my fathers farm crops in the 70's, by trade he was a carpenter but most importantly a very accomplished pilot.

Do you know whether he used to have/fly Tiger Moths? My dad has spoken of a friend (in Norfolk) he used to know who he went up with in a Tiger Moth who (from a vague memory!) I think he said he had a privately owned Hunter that he died in, in similar circumstances?

Probably me not remembering things properly, just curious.

[Ian D B]

Re; ‘Over Exposed!’ on Bleaklow

There is an unusual amount of wreckage on the surface at this site. Much of it was buried at the time of the recovery operation but has since been dug up again by visitors, though that still can’t account for why there is so much remaining. It is in an inaccessible part of the district but there are many crashes in the area (at least 9 on Bleaklow alone with a similar number on Kinder Scout on the other side of the Snake Pass) with nothing like as much remaining. Often wreck sites were cleared by scrap dealers in the years following a crash. Debris was often burned or buried or broken up and tumbled into gullies to prevent other passing aircraft from reporting it as a new crash.

Most people seem to agree with the view expressed on this thread that the selling debris from air crash sites is wrong. I have challenged individuals on e-bay about it, they are genuinely puzzled that anyone cares and see nothing wrong with it. See the thread here regarding the sale of bits of debris from Over Exposed being flogged on e-bay.

http://aircrashsites.co.uk/air-crash-sites-5/usaf-...

The Manchester Evening News wrote a piece about such a sale;

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/local-...

The Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 makes removal (and unearthing and even just touching) debris unlawful without permission from the MoD but that won't stop people taking stuff to put in their garden shed or whatever. Sometimes I have found scraps of debris some distance from the wreck site, presumably carried there by people who got tired hiking across the moor and back to the car with a heavy and sharp bit of metal, and so dumped it.

Anything I find of interest (sometimes a desirable bit of debris such as a part with writing on it, for example) I bury near to the site. At least the wreckage of 'Over Exposed!' will be there for some years to come.

From reading reports about the crash and the recovery operation of ‘Over Exposed!’ - a team of around 50 men combing the moor for bodies and body parts - it is probable that not every human body part was recovered at the time making this place especially deserving respect.

Here is a report from one of the recovery team. It is very grim reading however.

http://aircrashsites.co.uk/air-crash-sites-5/super...

Re; the 66 Squadron losses of the Sabres on Ashop Moor and the Meteors on Sliddens Moss two of those photos included above are mine, the top one and the bottom one. Please see here for details of those crashes.

http://aircrashsites.co.uk/air-crash-sites-5/f-86-...

http://aircrashsites.co.uk/air-crash-sites-5/tail-...



Re; Hunter G-BTYL

I am pleased a friend of Mr Cubbitt and his family has confirmed the matter regarding Mr Cubitt's remains. There was a small metal cross at the site the last time I visited.

Ian

Edited by Ian D B on Thursday 2nd January 20:48

[dr_gn]

Ian D B said:

Re; the 66 Squadron losses of the Sabres on Ashop Moor and the Meteors on Sliddens Moss two of those photos included above are mine, the top one and the bottom one. Please see here for details of those crashes.

http://aircrashsites.co.uk/air-crash-sites-5/f-86-...

http://aircrashsites.co.uk/air-crash-sites-5/tail-...

Ian, I hope you didn't mind me posting the pictures - they were from a Google Image search. I guess I should have looked at the links and posted them too.

I've been thumbing through my copy of Pat Cunningham's book "Peakland Air Crashes, The North" (I've been out on Broomhead Moors today - not looking for aircraft though), and on page 144 he shows an unidentified aircraft crash c.1935 in the Longendale Valley. Some say it was a DH.9, but from the photo I'm pretty sure it's a Slingsby primary glider, the confusion might have arisen becasue it's inverted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_glider

Do you have any further knowledge of this crash?

[TIGERSIX]

srob said:

TIGERSIX said:

I can confirm as a long time acquaintance of Wally Cubitt , he was left at his families request with the wreck of his plane,Wally was a very well known colourful character ,a highly accomplished crop duster pilot, who used to spray my fathers farm crops in the 70's, by trade he was a carpenter but most importantly a very accomplished pilot.

Do you know whether he used to have/fly Tiger Moths? My dad has spoken of a friend (in Norfolk) he used to know who he went up with in a Tiger Moth who (from a vague memory!) I think he said he had a privately owned Hunter that he died in, in similar circumstances?

Probably me not remembering things properly, just curious.

Yes Wally had Moths he was well known for restoring them, amongst many others at Foulsham Airfield ,as I mentioned he was avery accomplish crop dusting/spraying pilot and flew anything with great skill.

[srob]

I suspect he's the same chap then, I'll have to ask Dad when I see him.

I think they were quite good friends but many, many years ago. We went for a flight in a Tiger Moth (my Dad, brother and I) earlier this year and Dad was telling us about when he went up in one previously.

[shed driver]

If anyone is interested I have a copy of the US investigation report into the accident, which I will gladly scan in and upload, just as soon as I can find it!

I took my two sons up to visit the site a few years ago, the 11 year old was really affected, and wrote to the USAF historical section saying how he had taken some photographs and did they want them? They wrote back with a lovely letter, and copies of the original investigation.

SD.

[Roy Lime]

shed driver said:

If anyone is interested I have a copy of the US investigation report into the accident, which I will gladly scan in and upload, just as soon as I can find it!

Very. Please do.

[Ian D B]

dr_gn said:

Ian D B said:

Ian, I hope you didn't mind me posting the pictures - they were from a Google Image search. I guess I should have looked at the links and posted them too.

I've been thumbing through my copy of Pat Cunningham's book "Peakland Air Crashes, The North" (I've been out on Broomhead Moors today - not looking for aircraft though), and on page 144 he shows an unidentified aircraft crash c.1935 in the Longendale Valley. Some say it was a DH.9, but from the photo I'm pretty sure it's a Slingsby primary glider, the confusion might have arisen becasue it's inverted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_glider

Do you have any further knowledge of this crash?

Not at all, I am flattered when I see my stuff around. Besides I can't be precious about photos if I'm posting them on the net, it is how it is. Interesting comment about the DH9 / Slingsby. I shall take a look in my books and get back to you if I find anything...

Ian

[Ian D B]

dr_gn said:

Do you have any further knowledge of this crash?

No joy I’m afraid.

I have looked at Pat Cunningham’s latest version of that book (High Peak Air Crash Sites, published 2010). He no longer connects it to the DH 9 crash of 1919, merely records it as an unidentified aircraft c1935 and records it in the hope of there being some forthcoming information. No other books about air crashes in the area mention it.

I reckon you are right about it being a 1930s glider though. Looks like it lost its ski landing gear going off the photo in Cunningham’s first book.

Page 189 of this magazine from September 1939 refers to what looks like a rough landing of a Slingsby at Shaw near Rochdale 1939 having flown across Longdendale… But there must have been lots of occasions these flimsy craft came down unexpectedly and the author makes no mention of his craft overturning.

http://www.lakesgc.co.uk/mainwebpages/Sailplane%20...

You may be able to trawl through the magazine archives but it would be a long shot and very tedious…

If anything comes to light I will let you know.

Ian

[shed driver]

Roy Lime said:

shed driver said:

If anyone is interested I have a copy of the US investigation report into the accident, which I will gladly scan in and upload, just as soon as I can find it!

Very. Please do.

I've scanned them as .pdf - all weigh in at about 1.5 - 2Mb. There are 20+ pages that now need rotating, then I'll post them to Dropbox.

SD

[dr_gn]

Ian D B said:

dr_gn said:

Do you have any further knowledge of this crash?

No joy I’m afraid.

I have looked at Pat Cunningham’s latest version of that book (High Peak Air Crash Sites, published 2010). He no longer connects it to the DH 9 crash of 1919, merely records it as an unidentified aircraft c1935 and records it in the hope of there being some forthcoming information. No other books about air crashes in the area mention it.

I reckon you are right about it being a 1930s glider though. Looks like it lost its ski landing gear going off the photo in Cunningham’s first book.

Page 189 of this magazine from September 1939 refers to what looks like a rough landing of a Slingsby at Shaw near Rochdale 1939 having flown across Longdendale… But there must have been lots of occasions these flimsy craft came down unexpectedly and the author makes no mention of his craft overturning.

http://www.lakesgc.co.uk/mainwebpages/Sailplane%20...

You may be able to trawl through the magazine archives but it would be a long shot and very tedious…

If anything comes to light I will let you know.

Ian

Thanks for that. Great magazine!

[IanMorewood]

That bit of the world has more than its fair share of wrecked aircraft, I've visited a couple of the sites (a sabre, a Wellington and the b29) and its not hard to imagine a slightly lost and low aircraft ploughing into the ground as it tries to come out of the gloom to try and find a visual reference point.

[shed driver]

Dropbox now uploaded - Hope these are OK. Not sure what order they should be in, maybe someone more knowledgeable on USAF accident documents could help?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/vhk5t1286pyc607/LUOgf64...

SD.

[Ian D B]

shed driver said:

Dropbox now uploaded - Hope these are OK. Not sure what order they should be in, maybe someone more knowledgeable on USAF accident documents could help?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/vhk5t1286pyc607/LUOgf64...

SD.

Not sure about the order, will have to check mine but I note page 8 is missing?


This page on Flickr has some fascinating photos of RAF Harpur Hill mountain rescue team who were first on the scene that night. There are some photos of the crash taken at the time.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/82021226@N07/sets/721...

If anyone is interested in visiting the site of "Over Exposed!", it is an hour's walk from the big layby on the top of Snake Pass and is at Grid Reference SK 09042 94912.

A visit there can be tied in with a visit to the site of Lancaster KB993 at SK 07928 94781 and Dakota 42-108982 at SK 08069 94736 which is the impact point but debris is scattered all the way down Ashton Clough.

It can be hard going, descending the clough, a bit of slipping and sliding on the way down is ineveitable and there is a short rocky drop to be negotiated. At the bottom of the clough the Doctors Gate footpath can be picked up to return to the Snake Road.

All 6 crew were killed when the Lanc crashed on 18 May 1945 and there are just fragments remaining but there is a nice little memorial.

All 5 crew and 2 passengers on the Dakota were killed when it crashed on 24 July 1945. There was a small memorial there to one of the American crew but it was smashed by vandals. In the clough is a fair amount of debris including a decent bit of fuselage.

[dr_gn]

Is there an obvious footpath from the main track (Pennine Way?) to the B-29 site?

All 3 times I've been it's been a trek across country vagely to the trig point and then wandering around until the debris field comes into view.

[Ian D B]

dr_gn said:

Is there an obvious footpath from the main track (Pennine Way?) to the B-29 site?

All 3 times I've been it's been a trek across country vagely to the trig point and then wandering around until the debris field comes into view.

That's about right! The Pennine Way takes you much of the way there. I usually follow it to where it fords Hern Clough then take a compass bearing or see if I can pick up one of the paths which go straight to the site. The paths are easier to find on the way back. There is a good one direct to and from the PW but I never see it on the way out. I've found it in the middle of the night without difficulty, there's so much stuff remaining.

[dr_gn]

Ian D B said:

dr_gn said:

Is there an obvious footpath from the main track (Pennine Way?) to the B-29 site?

All 3 times I've been it's been a trek across country vagely to the trig point and then wandering around until the debris field comes into view.

That's about right! The Pennine Way takes you much of the way there. I usually follow it to where it fords Hern Clough then take a compass bearing or see if I can pick up one of the paths which go straight to the site. The paths are easier to find on the way back. There is a good one direct to and from the PW but I never see it on the way out. I've found it in the middle of the night without difficulty, there's so much stuff remaining.

Last time I went, initially I couldn't find any wreckage at all. I ended up taking a bearing from the trig point and following it until it all came into view. I have no idea how I could have missed it on the way up, given the amount that's left, and having been twice previously.

It can be very deceptive up there with the groughs and heather that all look the same - and the silence that seems to come with the mist. It's easy to get disorientated.

[Ian D B]

dr_gn said:

Last time I went, initially I couldn't find any wreckage at all. I ended up taking a bearing from the trig point and following it until it all came into view. I have no idea how I could have missed it on the way up, given the amount that's left, and having been twice previously.

It can be very deceptive up there with the groughs and heather that all look the same - and the silence that seems to come with the mist. It's easy to get disorientated.

Very true, I think it is Cunningham who makes the point that many people will stand at the trig point on Higher Shelf Stones and be totally unaware of the scene just a couple of hundred yards away. Until 5 or 6 years ago I never knew of it in spite of having tramped across Bleaklow numerous times since 1985.