RB-29 'over-exposed' crash site.
Discussion
Hooli said:
Ian D B said:
All 6 crew were killed when the Lanc crashed on 18 May 1945 and there are just fragments remaining but there is a nice little memorial.
I thought Lancs carried seven crew? or did it depend on the Mk?I know that When some long distance missions were flown, they removed the mid-upper turret so they could carry more fuel.
(So the gunner wasn't needed).
Edited by Riff Raff on Friday 3rd January 17:28
The standard crew for a World War 2 Bomber Command Lanc was indeed 7 (pilot, flight engineer, bomb aimer, navigator, radio operator, rear gunner, mid upper gunner). Indeed, that was also the standard crew for the other two "heavies" - the Stirling and the Halifax.
However, Lancasters were often used for special operations and were also used post war. In these cases, the crew size would be different - usually smaller. As mentioned above, the removal of the mid-upper turret was a common modification for "special" Lancasters which would mean that the mid-upper gunner position was not needed.
For example, the Dambuster Lancasters and Lancasters modified to carry the earthquake bombs (the Tallboy and the Grand Slam) did away with the mid-upper turret - and sometimes the nose turret too.
However, Lancasters were often used for special operations and were also used post war. In these cases, the crew size would be different - usually smaller. As mentioned above, the removal of the mid-upper turret was a common modification for "special" Lancasters which would mean that the mid-upper gunner position was not needed.
For example, the Dambuster Lancasters and Lancasters modified to carry the earthquake bombs (the Tallboy and the Grand Slam) did away with the mid-upper turret - and sometimes the nose turret too.
Hooli said:
Ian D B said:
All 6 crew were killed when the Lanc crashed on 18 May 1945 and there are just fragments remaining but there is a nice little memorial.
I thought Lancs carried seven crew? or did it depend on the Mk?Riff Raff said:
Hooli said:
Ian D B said:
All 6 crew were killed when the Lanc crashed on 18 May 1945 and there are just fragments remaining but there is a nice little memorial.
I thought Lancs carried seven crew? or did it depend on the Mk?I know that When some long distance missions were flown, they removed the mid-upper turret so they could carry more fuel.
(So the gunner wasn't needed).
Eric Mc said:
The standard crew for a World War 2 Bomber Command Lanc was indeed 7 (pilot, flight engineer, bomb aimer, navigator, radio operator, rear gunner, mid upper gunner). Indeed, that was also the standard crew for the other two "heavies" - the Stirling and the Halifax.
However, Lancasters were often used for special operations and were also used post war. In these cases, the crew size would be different - usually smaller. As mentioned above, the removal of the mid-upper turret was a common modification for "special" Lancasters which would mean that the mid-upper gunner position was not needed.
For example, the Dambuster Lancasters and Lancasters modified to carry the earthquake bombs (the Tallboy and the Grand Slam) did away with the mid-upper turret - and sometimes the nose turret too.
Well spotted!However, Lancasters were often used for special operations and were also used post war. In these cases, the crew size would be different - usually smaller. As mentioned above, the removal of the mid-upper turret was a common modification for "special" Lancasters which would mean that the mid-upper gunner position was not needed.
For example, the Dambuster Lancasters and Lancasters modified to carry the earthquake bombs (the Tallboy and the Grand Slam) did away with the mid-upper turret - and sometimes the nose turret too.
This was a routine training flight after the war had ended and the crew were to fly a few circuits around the locality of their base at RAF Linton-on-Ouse in Yorkshire. The pilot, F/O Clifford evidently decided a navigator would not be needed for such local flying, so you are right to question the crew numbers.
It was probably something of a pleasure flight over a country which would have no longer been blacked out. The Canadian crew were apparently due to return home so again and having not taken a navigator but nonetheless being joined by totally unnecessary air gunners, and given that the Lanc was so far from its locale, means that the pleasure flight theory seems even more likely.
There were loads of crashes in the months after the war; the crews' guard was down, they were looking forward to going home and alas, many simply took their eye off the ball.
As a footnote, Cunningham says in his book that F/O Clifford's 91 year old mother was helicoptered to the crash site in 1995 for a ceremony to unveil the memorial stone, "picturesquely supported by pipes and drums from the Clan Urquhart Highlanders"
shed driver said:
If anyone is interested I have a copy of the US investigation report into the accident, which I will gladly scan in and upload, just as soon as I can find it!
I took my two sons up to visit the site a few years ago, the 11 year old was really affected, and wrote to the USAF historical section saying how he had taken some photographs and did they want them? They wrote back with a lovely letter, and copies of the original investigation.
SD.
In the official report you kindly posted, it says the aircraft was on a routine photo-reconnaissance flight to Burtonwood to obtain photos of the depot. No mention of it carrying money for the USAF personnel there.I took my two sons up to visit the site a few years ago, the 11 year old was really affected, and wrote to the USAF historical section saying how he had taken some photographs and did they want them? They wrote back with a lovely letter, and copies of the original investigation.
SD.
Matt Harper said:
Once, about 20 years ago, we were hiking over Grassington Moor in the Yorks dales, headed to Mossdale Cave when we happened upon the crash site of a Wellington that was strewn across a field. Later discovered that it had got lost in bad weather during the very last days of WW2 and had dropped below the cloud deck for a visual reference and ploughed into the ground. There were still a lot of recognizable parts lying around, but it was surely a devastating impact, as there were bits of smashed engine all over the place and the largest pieces of wreckage were the (shredded) tyres. I'm sure it's been picked over thousands of times by gouls and souvenir hunters - amazed us that there was anything left of it, in fact.
Was it the Buckden Pike crash?http://www.buckdenpike.co.uk/
Or maybe you were on Great Whernside which I think has a number of crash sites - Mosquito, B-17 and Wellington.
RicksAlfas said:
Was it the Buckden Pike crash?
http://www.buckdenpike.co.uk/
Or maybe you were on Great Whernside which I think has a number of crash sites - Mosquito, B-17 and Wellington.
No I don't think it was any of these. If I recall correctly we'd parked up at Kilnsey and walked east across Grassington Moor from Conistone toward Mossdale Scar. I'd guess it was about 3 miles east of Conistone. Most of the wreckage was in a gully behind a drystone wall, so I assume it was collected and dumped there, however there were bits of mangled aluminum all over the area - just lying on the fell and in the crevices in the exposed limestone. I clearly remember the carcasses of the main gear tyres which didn't look as though they'd been disturbed since the plane crashed.http://www.buckdenpike.co.uk/
Or maybe you were on Great Whernside which I think has a number of crash sites - Mosquito, B-17 and Wellington.
The landlord in the pub at Kettlewell filled us in that it was a Wellington and that it had come to grief within days of the European war ending.
There was no memorial at the crash site that I remember.
mybrainhurts said:
Why would it be carrying 13(?) people for that?
huge American logistics airbase named Burtonwood. The M62 motorway runs slap bang through the middle of the base now and little evidence remains of the site other than a couple of hangers converted for use as industrial units. By comparison RAF Scampton's American presence was quite small so all mail and pay destined for aircrew based there was routed through Burtonwood and had to be collected on regular re-supply flights. On 3rd November 1948 Overexposed was tasked with just such a mission and although only a minimal flight crew would be required the rest of the operational crew chose to go along for the ride bringing the total personnel aboard the plane to 13. This was not at all unusual - Scampton was rather short on creature comforts for the Americans, especially in view of the austerity measures in the post war UK where rationing was still in operation for the civilian population. But the vast logistics base at Burtonwood had just about everything a Yank away from home could desire - it was in effect a small part of America displaced onto English soil, even UK currency had to be converted into dollars for any none Americans visiting the base! No surprise then that the entire crew jumped at the chance of some quality leisure time just a 25 minute flight away. TheTurbonator said:
mybrainhurts said:
Why would it be carrying 13(?) people for that?
huge American logistics airbase named Burtonwood. The M62 motorway runs slap bang through the middle of the base now and little evidence remains of the site other than a couple of hangers converted for use as industrial units. By comparison RAF Scampton's American presence was quite small so all mail and pay destined for aircrew based there was routed through Burtonwood and had to be collected on regular re-supply flights. On 3rd November 1948 Overexposed was tasked with just such a mission and although only a minimal flight crew would be required the rest of the operational crew chose to go along for the ride bringing the total personnel aboard the plane to 13. This was not at all unusual - Scampton was rather short on creature comforts for the Americans, especially in view of the austerity measures in the post war UK where rationing was still in operation for the civilian population. But the vast logistics base at Burtonwood had just about everything a Yank away from home could desire - it was in effect a small part of America displaced onto English soil, even UK currency had to be converted into dollars for any none Americans visiting the base! No surprise then that the entire crew jumped at the chance of some quality leisure time just a 25 minute flight away. Matt Harper said:
RicksAlfas said:
Was it the Buckden Pike crash?
http://www.buckdenpike.co.uk/
Or maybe you were on Great Whernside which I think has a number of crash sites - Mosquito, B-17 and Wellington.
No I don't think it was any of these. If I recall correctly we'd parked up at Kilnsey and walked east across Grassington Moor from Conistone toward Mossdale Scar. I'd guess it was about 3 miles east of Conistone. Most of the wreckage was in a gully behind a drystone wall, so I assume it was collected and dumped there, however there were bits of mangled aluminum all over the area - just lying on the fell and in the crevices in the exposed limestone. I clearly remember the carcasses of the main gear tyres which didn't look as though they'd been disturbed since the plane crashed.http://www.buckdenpike.co.uk/
Or maybe you were on Great Whernside which I think has a number of crash sites - Mosquito, B-17 and Wellington.
The landlord in the pub at Kettlewell filled us in that it was a Wellington and that it had come to grief within days of the European war ending.
There was no memorial at the crash site that I remember.
http://aircrashsites.co.uk/air-crash-sites-5/welli...
TheTurbonator said:
Burtonwood. The M62 motorway runs slap bang through the middle of the base now and little evidence remains of the site other than a couple of hangers converted for use as industrial units.
I understand that part of the M62 west of J8 at Burtonwood is actually built on top of runway 09/27 and apparently the surface of the motorway today is partly made of the remains old runway... Ian D B said:
That's it.
Matt Harper said:
Ian D B said:
That's it.I was lucky enough to visit this Lanc site in 2012 http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=118...
Amazing to see, really.
Amazing to see, really.
I hiked up to the B29 site on Bleaklow last year and posted some pics on a thread here. Also found the C47 Dakota site and the Lancaster site that are both nearby. The B29 is easy to find but the others need some navigation. Most of the Dakota is in a deep gully along a stream bed.
As someone mentioned earlier, some of the chrome and stainless steel on the B29 looks like it was made yesterday. The aluminium, not so much.
The sheer size of the B29 site is impressive - it covers a huge area. The site has a very eerie feel to it and is often wreathed in mist. Easy to see why it has generated ghost stories.
As for salvage, I believe an attempt was made shortly after the crash and some pieces were taken away and the engines were moved together away from their original spots.
As someone mentioned earlier, some of the chrome and stainless steel on the B29 looks like it was made yesterday. The aluminium, not so much.
The sheer size of the B29 site is impressive - it covers a huge area. The site has a very eerie feel to it and is often wreathed in mist. Easy to see why it has generated ghost stories.
As for salvage, I believe an attempt was made shortly after the crash and some pieces were taken away and the engines were moved together away from their original spots.
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