End of the line for the A-10 Warthog?
Discussion
andy97 said:
To be fair the Harrier was originally developed to fly low and fast (hence the low cockpit and low gust response wing in the GR1/3) and over the top to deliver cluster bombs and SNEB rockets, and not hang around in a turning fight. A more traditional close air support concept of ops than the A-10.
The A-10 couldn't operate from small short field strips either.
Different but complimentary beasts really.
In a former life, I controlled both in a forward air control role, on ops and in training. The A-10 couldn't operate from small short field strips either.
Different but complimentary beasts really.
Edited by andy97 on Wednesday 23 April 11:55
Out of all the types we saw in, Harrier was far and away the easiest and most compliant platform. We knew if we had a GR5/7 lined up and about to tip in, we would get a pilot and jet willing, ready and able to go the extra mile. My respect for them knows no bounds - the ability to single seat multi task at 420kts, very low, inverted, navigating, fighting, communicating, prioritising.. as well as flying - very clever people.
A10 was difficult because its concept of operating, the aerial ballet, the loitering, the coy fliiting above and below tree lines, the choreography and the slow speed made things awkward. I'm not saying it was a bad platform, it was just difficult to control. The main armament.. a very eerie, depressing (and annoying) sound.
Give me a fast (admittedly, a little wheezy and leggy towards the end of its days) jet anyday. "MOONSHINE NOW ("Tango").. HARD.. RIGHT, HARDER ("ughhhhhhhh").. ROLL OUT. ON THE NOSE, 2 KILOMETRES, FACING YOU FAR SIDE OF VALLEY.. MASSIVE.. SINGLE ABSOLUTELY PROMINENT WOOD ("Tally") FORWARD FACING WOODLINE ("ughhh.. Tally").. ARTILLERY, TARGET ("Tango!").. CLEAR LIVE".
The GR7 could pick up the laser from daft distances, I seem to recall 25 klicks on one occasion, when we were delivering the rear brief. All changed now though, nothing like a dribbling old soldier talking to himself in the corner of the bar! People sometimes get it wrong when you say "good times", but they were - working with pros under extreme conditions (not Dave TV extreme.. but extreme) and in the prime of life. Good times.
Jag was not the most agile and it wasn't the quickest Eric, althou it was more than capable of tucking into the ground. We just wanted the jets in and out, pronto. I recall that you couldn't chuck Jaguar around the sky as readily as you might do with Harrier, when.. literally, you could scream at the pilot to try and pull the wings off and it would turn as if that's what he (in those days!) was trying to do. The lowest I saw Harrier was 27 feet, calibrated by a Dutch unit on exercise.
In hilly terrain, Jaguar's FLIR couldn't pick up the laser at distance so in itself, that limited how easy we could work with it in those environs. Again though, it wasn't a reflection of the platform, rather, the terrain and theatre. I imagine that for Germany and in its intended original role, it was superb and in the desert, doing battlefield air interdiction and not close air support, Jag was a different kettle of fish. Not sure who is flying this one either..
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4wXeKV7dLeQ
In hilly terrain, Jaguar's FLIR couldn't pick up the laser at distance so in itself, that limited how easy we could work with it in those environs. Again though, it wasn't a reflection of the platform, rather, the terrain and theatre. I imagine that for Germany and in its intended original role, it was superb and in the desert, doing battlefield air interdiction and not close air support, Jag was a different kettle of fish. Not sure who is flying this one either..
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4wXeKV7dLeQ
I think that might be a good comparison, Eric. I'm plumbing the depths of my FAC recollections (as I do a client's pension - now there's a combo of multitasking), and Jaguar's leisurely performance made it awkward to turn in a fighting radius as well. A motorbike cornering quickly has stability but one poodling along doesn't.. I wonder if the wing design lost Jaguar too much lift at slow speed in the turn - standing by to be corrected by the experts who flew them.
A quick funny?
We were controlling French jets and they wanted us to mark our position with red smoke (given the circumstances, our concise "no" may have offended). I remember that they thought the snow was white smoke. They tipped in and we had difficulty in getting them to tally (see) the target. We used clear English, Standard NATO designations and nothing worked so, before we aborted and in futile desperation E screamed "Dirt track fff.. the dirt track". The jet aborted and the leader responded in perfectly annunciated English "Sir, there is no need to get shirt with me.. from up here, ALL the tracks look dirty".
A quick funny?
We were controlling French jets and they wanted us to mark our position with red smoke (given the circumstances, our concise "no" may have offended). I remember that they thought the snow was white smoke. They tipped in and we had difficulty in getting them to tally (see) the target. We used clear English, Standard NATO designations and nothing worked so, before we aborted and in futile desperation E screamed "Dirt track fff.. the dirt track". The jet aborted and the leader responded in perfectly annunciated English "Sir, there is no need to get shirt with me.. from up here, ALL the tracks look dirty".
I passed the thread on to a friend who is an ex RAF Harrier pilot, here are his memories of FAC.
Ahhhhh... Days of FAC. Working with a FAC was a black art. Laser had not been approved for use when I were a lad. It was fitted but we could only use it on approved ranges and not in the open with a FAC. Finding targets by eyeball being talked in to them was pretty hit or miss. Best results were when the FAC gave us the grid ref and we plotted them ourselves on a 50 thou. All this while flying low level at 420 kts - bit of a trick. Once laser marking was approved the success rate went up dramatically. Finding multiple targets (like a group of tanks) was ok, but individual targets were hard to acquire especially when they were inevitably draped in camouflage netting.
The jaguar wasn'tdesigned for close air support. It was more of a strategic machine and the wing and engines were so designed. It was very efficient - would fly faster than a harrier straight and level and carry a big load of weapons. But the minute it started to turn the game changed. It could Either turn "gently" with a huge radius of turn or turn hard and lose virtually all of its speed. Generally they weren't used for close air support the way harrier and warthogs were. They had very good range and had state of the art weapons aiming stuff which made them very good at their job. But their main job wasn't with a FAC .
One of the biggest issues was communication with the FAC. The harrier radio was notoriously bad. They got a job lot from Maplins I think. I had countless radio failures. Hearing what the guy was saying and interpreting it was always one of the issues. Not sure if they sorted that with the later models of harrier. Classic example of millions of pounds of equipment and manpower being let down by a simple item like a radio.
At the end of the session, (and you would have no more than 10 -15 mins with him before the fuel gave out) you would always locate him and beat the s
t out of his position (except on the bigger exercises when he would remain "anonymous"). On one occasion By virtue of the strange structure of military law I evaded the wrath of my masters and all the heat fell upon my wingman who was the new squadron exec and had been sent out with me to learn how we did it. As he was the senior officer in the pair, he took the wrath even though I had lead him into it ! Unknown to us or the FAC the Germans had planted a mobile radar to catch the likes of us flying lower than was approved.
Ahhhhh... Days of FAC. Working with a FAC was a black art. Laser had not been approved for use when I were a lad. It was fitted but we could only use it on approved ranges and not in the open with a FAC. Finding targets by eyeball being talked in to them was pretty hit or miss. Best results were when the FAC gave us the grid ref and we plotted them ourselves on a 50 thou. All this while flying low level at 420 kts - bit of a trick. Once laser marking was approved the success rate went up dramatically. Finding multiple targets (like a group of tanks) was ok, but individual targets were hard to acquire especially when they were inevitably draped in camouflage netting.
The jaguar wasn'tdesigned for close air support. It was more of a strategic machine and the wing and engines were so designed. It was very efficient - would fly faster than a harrier straight and level and carry a big load of weapons. But the minute it started to turn the game changed. It could Either turn "gently" with a huge radius of turn or turn hard and lose virtually all of its speed. Generally they weren't used for close air support the way harrier and warthogs were. They had very good range and had state of the art weapons aiming stuff which made them very good at their job. But their main job wasn't with a FAC .
One of the biggest issues was communication with the FAC. The harrier radio was notoriously bad. They got a job lot from Maplins I think. I had countless radio failures. Hearing what the guy was saying and interpreting it was always one of the issues. Not sure if they sorted that with the later models of harrier. Classic example of millions of pounds of equipment and manpower being let down by a simple item like a radio.
At the end of the session, (and you would have no more than 10 -15 mins with him before the fuel gave out) you would always locate him and beat the s
t out of his position (except on the bigger exercises when he would remain "anonymous"). On one occasion By virtue of the strange structure of military law I evaded the wrath of my masters and all the heat fell upon my wingman who was the new squadron exec and had been sent out with me to learn how we did it. As he was the senior officer in the pair, he took the wrath even though I had lead him into it ! Unknown to us or the FAC the Germans had planted a mobile radar to catch the likes of us flying lower than was approved. munroman said:
I passed the thread on to a friend who is an ex RAF Harrier pilot, here are his memories of FAC.
Ahhhhh... Days of FAC. Working with a FAC was a black art. Laser had not been approved for use when I were a lad. It was fitted but we could only use it on approved ranges and not in the open with a FAC. Finding targets by eyeball being talked in to them was pretty hit or miss. Best results were when the FAC gave us the grid ref and we plotted them ourselves on a 50 thou. All this while flying low level at 420 kts - bit of a trick. Once laser marking was approved the success rate went up dramatically. Finding multiple targets (like a group of tanks) was ok, but individual targets were hard to acquire especially when they were inevitably draped in camouflage netting.
The jaguar wasn'tdesigned for close air support. It was more of a strategic machine and the wing and engines were so designed. It was very efficient - would fly faster than a harrier straight and level and carry a big load of weapons. But the minute it started to turn the game changed. It could Either turn "gently" with a huge radius of turn or turn hard and lose virtually all of its speed. Generally they weren't used for close air support the way harrier and warthogs were. They had very good range and had state of the art weapons aiming stuff which made them very good at their job. But their main job wasn't with a FAC .
One of the biggest issues was communication with the FAC. The harrier radio was notoriously bad. They got a job lot from Maplins I think. I had countless radio failures. Hearing what the guy was saying and interpreting it was always one of the issues. Not sure if they sorted that with the later models of harrier. Classic example of millions of pounds of equipment and manpower being let down by a simple item like a radio.
At the end of the session, (and you would have no more than 10 -15 mins with him before the fuel gave out) you would always locate him and beat the st out of his position (except on the bigger exercises when he would remain "anonymous"). On one occasion By virtue of the strange structure of military law I evaded the wrath of my masters and all the heat fell upon my wingman who was the new squadron exec and had been sent out with me to learn how we did it. As he was the senior officer in the pair, he took the wrath even though I had lead him into it ! Unknown to us or the FAC the Germans had planted a mobile radar to catch the likes of us flying lower than was approved.
Love stuff like this - written very matter of fact, but bleeding dangerous - makes my day job seem even more boring than it is.Ahhhhh... Days of FAC. Working with a FAC was a black art. Laser had not been approved for use when I were a lad. It was fitted but we could only use it on approved ranges and not in the open with a FAC. Finding targets by eyeball being talked in to them was pretty hit or miss. Best results were when the FAC gave us the grid ref and we plotted them ourselves on a 50 thou. All this while flying low level at 420 kts - bit of a trick. Once laser marking was approved the success rate went up dramatically. Finding multiple targets (like a group of tanks) was ok, but individual targets were hard to acquire especially when they were inevitably draped in camouflage netting.
The jaguar wasn'tdesigned for close air support. It was more of a strategic machine and the wing and engines were so designed. It was very efficient - would fly faster than a harrier straight and level and carry a big load of weapons. But the minute it started to turn the game changed. It could Either turn "gently" with a huge radius of turn or turn hard and lose virtually all of its speed. Generally they weren't used for close air support the way harrier and warthogs were. They had very good range and had state of the art weapons aiming stuff which made them very good at their job. But their main job wasn't with a FAC .
One of the biggest issues was communication with the FAC. The harrier radio was notoriously bad. They got a job lot from Maplins I think. I had countless radio failures. Hearing what the guy was saying and interpreting it was always one of the issues. Not sure if they sorted that with the later models of harrier. Classic example of millions of pounds of equipment and manpower being let down by a simple item like a radio.
At the end of the session, (and you would have no more than 10 -15 mins with him before the fuel gave out) you would always locate him and beat the s
t out of his position (except on the bigger exercises when he would remain "anonymous"). On one occasion By virtue of the strange structure of military law I evaded the wrath of my masters and all the heat fell upon my wingman who was the new squadron exec and had been sent out with me to learn how we did it. As he was the senior officer in the pair, he took the wrath even though I had lead him into it ! Unknown to us or the FAC the Germans had planted a mobile radar to catch the likes of us flying lower than was approved. munroman said:
The jaguar wasn'tdesigned for close air support. It was more of a strategic machine and the wing and engines were so designed. It was very efficient - would fly faster than a harrier straight and level and carry a big load of weapons. But the minute it started to turn the game changed. It could Either turn "gently" with a huge radius of turn or turn hard and lose virtually all of its speed. Generally they weren't used for close air support the way harrier and warthogs were. They had very good range and had state of the art weapons aiming stuff which made them very good at their job. But their main job wasn't with a FAC .
Originally designed as an advanced weapons trainer and light ground attack aircraft as part of a series of Anglo-French projects (Gazelle, Lynx, Puma, Jaguar). Underpowered in its early forms. Probably more to meet a "political" than a staff requirement!!!!There was a French Navy Carrier based version mooted fitted for catapult take off and arrested landing and they built and flew a prototype but it never went in to production.
In RAF service never used as an advanced trainer (the Hawk did that job) and was probably most successful in the Tactical Recce role.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPECAT_Jaguar
As an aside, in the 1990s the RAF was still in transition from a reliance on a fixed base RAF Germany type role to the deployable concept of ops we have today (except the Harrier force) and the Tornado, for eg, was difficult to deploy quickly - no criticism, its just that the infrastructure and support required to run a Tornado at short notice from a forward location was not really in place then. In contrast Jaguar (and Harrier) squadron could mobilise for deployment quite quickly as that was what they were used to.
The USA particularly appreciated the Tac Recce capabilities of the aircraft/ aircrew.
Edited by andy97 on Friday 25th April 14:44
andy97 said:
its just that the infrastructure and support required to run a Tornado at short notice from a forward location was not really in place then. In contrast Jaguar (and Harrier) squadron could mobilise for deployment quite quickly as that was what they were used to.
I can remember us doing Mildenhall airshow with our Tonkas in the late 80's, we turned up with loads of kit and two coaches of people for 12 aircraft, the Harriers and Jaguars turned with a couple of tents and a handful of lads to look after theirs!We had a much better BBQ though!
Always had a great deal of respect for the pilots who operated the Jag in RAFG, low level the only way to survive, weather and terrain and that was on training ops!
Small, fast with a low signature it was an advanced aircraft when it first came into service and with upgrades stayed that way until the end of it's service. With HMS and ASRAAM all it needed was a twisted pair and the AMRAAM would have been "over the shoulder" cued..yet another VSO decision...
Speaking of which, the way both the air and ground crews were treated on withdrawal was disgraceful. imo.
munroman said:
I passed the thread on to a friend who is an ex RAF Harrier pilot, here are his memories of FAC..
Ask him to check his log book for signs of XZ994, seen here at Brize Norton today. The Harrier Force 1:50,000 map budget was outrageous! The comms really were rubbish, we moved onto HaveQuick, early tacsat etc and that made it easier. When deployed overseas we could speak with Portishead Radio (BT) and they always put us through to our homes.. I remember one xmas eve vividly and even now, with much warmth and appreciation. When comms got good, and if multinational jets were queuing up to get trade, the difficulty was inadvertently speaking to jets *before* you needed them. Ask him too, about "Leader Waggle". If you had 2 pairs closing at 420 knots, you had to offer directions using "CDO".. "clockface, distance, objective" and you used the leader as the reference, especially important if the jets were closing from different bearings.
To do that, all commands were issued for the reference of the leader, and if the jets were flying tactically, it was vital to get a handle on the leader. Hence the command for the leader to waggle wings briefly ("tally leader.. leader, 2 o clock, 4000 metres" etc, and the rest would jockey around him. Pairs intersecting was by far the hardest control, but the greatest buzz.. 420 knots doesn't allow much time to inspect your navel.
The pilots suggested it compromised the leader, but I didn't buy that. It was also hard to do at times because you had to think in reverse. You didn't want to be positioned on the line of attack in case the bomb dropped short, but you had to keep your eye on the target, you had to maintain situational awareness and of course, if someone was approaching from over a shoulder, the clockface vector you'd offer to them if you were looking at them was different to that which you would think looking at the target yourself.
Quite a few Harriers (GR3) were lost due to post detonation shrapnel or cannon ricochet after releasing or firing when flying too low.
Edit: fot.
Edited by Ginge R on Friday 25th April 20:15
mcdjl said:
Ginge R said:
Ask him to check his log book for signs of XZ994, seen here at Brize Norton today.
Edit: fot.
Whats happening to it- off to the USA?Edit: fot.
Edited by Ginge R on Friday 25th April 20:15
Is/was used for Movements training at Brize, as far as I was aware.
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