Discussion
I've been racing a Dart18 solo without the jib for the past year and don't find tacking much of a drama, especially compared to the Vortex I had previously.
Re single handing a RS800, seen it done in light winds by a very good experienced sailor, so it is possible but not recommended.
The other option fot the OP might be to volunteer to crew for a variety of boats to see which one he likes. Plenty of choice ot there especially if your local club dosen't have any established fleets.
Re single handing a RS800, seen it done in light winds by a very good experienced sailor, so it is possible but not recommended.
The other option fot the OP might be to volunteer to crew for a variety of boats to see which one he likes. Plenty of choice ot there especially if your local club dosen't have any established fleets.
Slight hijack, but a work colleague (top drawer sailer/instructor) has recommended a Dart 16 as my first dinghy...
Having no experience of sailing (I kite quite regularly, both land and board) how difficult is it to get up and running and confident enough to get the (young) kids out with me to get started on waterborne adrenaline?
I live 50m away from a lovely slipway onto the Solent, so wouldn't really be interested in joining a club etc.
Having no experience of sailing (I kite quite regularly, both land and board) how difficult is it to get up and running and confident enough to get the (young) kids out with me to get started on waterborne adrenaline?
I live 50m away from a lovely slipway onto the Solent, so wouldn't really be interested in joining a club etc.
Burrow01 said:
Might be interesting sailing it solo 
Not at all, just ditch the jib and make sure it's not too windy... LolI've always thought that a RS500 with twin long tiller extensions (you need this because of the main sheet bridle at the back) would be an absolute hoot singlehanded. I've sailed them loads one-up but the short tiller extension has always held me back from getting it really powered up with the kite.
Sway said:
Slight hijack, but a work colleague (top drawer sailer/instructor) has recommended a Dart 16 as my first dinghy...
Having no experience of sailing (I kite quite regularly, both land and board) how difficult is it to get up and running and confident enough to get the (young) kids out with me to get started on waterborne adrenaline?
I live 50m away from a lovely slipway onto the Solent, so wouldn't really be interested in joining a club etc.
I think if you did the 3 day? RYA Level 2 course on on a catamaran you would be safe enough to go out on your own to build enough experience to take the kids out on a Dart 16Having no experience of sailing (I kite quite regularly, both land and board) how difficult is it to get up and running and confident enough to get the (young) kids out with me to get started on waterborne adrenaline?
I live 50m away from a lovely slipway onto the Solent, so wouldn't really be interested in joining a club etc.
One of the advantages on a D16 is that you can reef the main sail, which is not possible on most Cats and so it has a really wide wind range thats safely sailable even for people with less experience
D16 is pretty buoyant and cats are inherently less tippy than mono hulls so its generally pretty forgiving - heavy to pull up a slipway by yourself though, but great to get kids an intro to sailing with some speed involved.
village idiot said:
Burrow01 said:
Might be interesting sailing it solo
Not at all, just ditch the jib and make sure it's not too windy... LolI've always thought that a RS500 with twin long tiller extensions (you need this because of the main sheet bridle at the back) would be an absolute hoot singlehanded. I've sailed them loads one-up but the short tiller extension has always held me back from getting it really powered up with the kite.
Burrow01 said:
Sway said:
Slight hijack, but a work colleague (top drawer sailer/instructor) has recommended a Dart 16 as my first dinghy...
Having no experience of sailing (I kite quite regularly, both land and board) how difficult is it to get up and running and confident enough to get the (young) kids out with me to get started on waterborne adrenaline?
I live 50m away from a lovely slipway onto the Solent, so wouldn't really be interested in joining a club etc.
I think if you did the 3 day? RYA Level 2 course on on a catamaran you would be safe enough to go out on your own to build enough experience to take the kids out on a Dart 16Having no experience of sailing (I kite quite regularly, both land and board) how difficult is it to get up and running and confident enough to get the (young) kids out with me to get started on waterborne adrenaline?
I live 50m away from a lovely slipway onto the Solent, so wouldn't really be interested in joining a club etc.
One of the advantages on a D16 is that you can reef the main sail, which is not possible on most Cats and so it has a really wide wind range thats safely sailable even for people with less experience
D16 is pretty buoyant and cats are inherently less tippy than mono hulls so its generally pretty forgiving - heavy to pull up a slipway by yourself though, but great to get kids an intro to sailing with some speed involved.
Mate is ex-RYA, and is willing to spend a few days teaching me the basics prior to doing an official course.
The kids love flying on the end of the kite (with me controlling power!) but aren't big enough yet to get on a board. They're both learning to skateboard so they learn board skills - but want to keep them away from skateparks and out on the water!
Some good suggestions here. I sail a 49er and a foiling Moth and I can confirm that both of those are totally unsuitable for your needs at the moment!
I've not done much cat sailing, but TBH it's not really for me. It does feel a bit "point and shoot" single modal sailing. I'd also say that if you are not that experienced, you can get into a bit of bother with a cat, as it will load up and go very fast and then bite hard, where a mono will have fallen over long before then. I also really don't like the way they tack so slowly and you can't roll tack them, although they do look good fun twin stringing with the kite up.
I would lean towards the Fireball option if I were you. Spend about £1500 on a decent composite Severn sailboats model (GRP hull, wooden deck) or £3000 upwards on an all epoxy Winder, which can dent easily so be careful with hat trapeze hook, however they are absolultey bombproof structure wise. It's ok in light winds, it's brilliant in high winds, even north of 30kts, goes like stink on a tight reach, and single handing from the wire is very easy as it's such a narrow boat. I've had 3, and although I've moved on to faster things, or things with berths and a fridge, I do still have a real soft spot for the Furball.
I've not done much cat sailing, but TBH it's not really for me. It does feel a bit "point and shoot" single modal sailing. I'd also say that if you are not that experienced, you can get into a bit of bother with a cat, as it will load up and go very fast and then bite hard, where a mono will have fallen over long before then. I also really don't like the way they tack so slowly and you can't roll tack them, although they do look good fun twin stringing with the kite up.
I would lean towards the Fireball option if I were you. Spend about £1500 on a decent composite Severn sailboats model (GRP hull, wooden deck) or £3000 upwards on an all epoxy Winder, which can dent easily so be careful with hat trapeze hook, however they are absolultey bombproof structure wise. It's ok in light winds, it's brilliant in high winds, even north of 30kts, goes like stink on a tight reach, and single handing from the wire is very easy as it's such a narrow boat. I've had 3, and although I've moved on to faster things, or things with berths and a fridge, I do still have a real soft spot for the Furball.
My username might suggest what I've had some experience in sailing over the years.
B14 might be a step up for you. They take a lot of practice and regularly are purchased by people who take them out, get intimidated, and then never get sailed again. They definitely cannot be single-handed except on light days by an experienced sailor. Fantastic boats and still my favourite dinghy, but not a boat to be bought for the odd weekend out on the water unfortunately.
For cheap thrills, take a look at a Laser II. They can be sailed one-up, have a trapeze (which you don't necessarily need to use at first) and are pretty bullet proof. Once you've got the hang of it, with a long enough tiller extension you can sail it single handed from the trapeze too.
B14 might be a step up for you. They take a lot of practice and regularly are purchased by people who take them out, get intimidated, and then never get sailed again. They definitely cannot be single-handed except on light days by an experienced sailor. Fantastic boats and still my favourite dinghy, but not a boat to be bought for the odd weekend out on the water unfortunately.
For cheap thrills, take a look at a Laser II. They can be sailed one-up, have a trapeze (which you don't necessarily need to use at first) and are pretty bullet proof. Once you've got the hang of it, with a long enough tiller extension you can sail it single handed from the trapeze too.
Hard drive and B14, thanks - have been googling Fireballs and Laser IIs as well. The thing that puts me off slightly us there aren't any at the club, leading to lonely races I guess...also, no possibility to try one.
There seem to be a few Dart 16s and 18s so I may get a chance to crew and see how they are.
In terms of people saying that Cats are easy to get into trouble with - in what way do you mean? Is it just that they go fast and when they pitchpole you go flying? It sounds daft but it's probably part of the appeal! Loch Lomond is big enough that running out of space ought not to be too much of an issue.
Is there a trick to avoiding it during a gybe?
There seem to be a few Dart 16s and 18s so I may get a chance to crew and see how they are.
In terms of people saying that Cats are easy to get into trouble with - in what way do you mean? Is it just that they go fast and when they pitchpole you go flying? It sounds daft but it's probably part of the appeal! Loch Lomond is big enough that running out of space ought not to be too much of an issue.
Is there a trick to avoiding it during a gybe?
Disastrous said:
Hard drive and B14, thanks - have been googling Fireballs and Laser IIs as well. The thing that puts me off slightly us there aren't any at the club, leading to lonely races I guess...also, no possibility to try one.
There seem to be a few Dart 16s and 18s so I may get a chance to crew and see how they are.
In terms of people saying that Cats are easy to get into trouble with - in what way do you mean? Is it just that they go fast and when they pitchpole you go flying? It sounds daft but it's probably part of the appeal! Loch Lomond is big enough that running out of space ought not to be too much of an issue.
Is there a trick to avoiding it during a gybe?
The speed is not necessarily the issue, it's handling them when they capsize. The float high on their sides and drift very quickly downwind, so you can be left behind if you haven't stayed in touch with the boat. They're also relatively difficult to right from capsize unless you've got the knack and a bit of weight. If they turtle, no fun at all. Most people recommend that you practice capsizing and righting the boat in light winds at first before you commit to a windier day where it might not be voluntary... There seem to be a few Dart 16s and 18s so I may get a chance to crew and see how they are.
In terms of people saying that Cats are easy to get into trouble with - in what way do you mean? Is it just that they go fast and when they pitchpole you go flying? It sounds daft but it's probably part of the appeal! Loch Lomond is big enough that running out of space ought not to be too much of an issue.
Is there a trick to avoiding it during a gybe?
Having said that, they are good fun and the dart 16 is designed for single and double handed use. If you want a cat, then the Dart 16 has to be the best option - bullet proof whilst fitting your needs.
b14 said:
Disastrous said:
Hard drive and B14, thanks - have been googling Fireballs and Laser IIs as well. The thing that puts me off slightly us there aren't any at the club, leading to lonely races I guess...also, no possibility to try one.
There seem to be a few Dart 16s and 18s so I may get a chance to crew and see how they are.
In terms of people saying that Cats are easy to get into trouble with - in what way do you mean? Is it just that they go fast and when they pitchpole you go flying? It sounds daft but it's probably part of the appeal! Loch Lomond is big enough that running out of space ought not to be too much of an issue.
Is there a trick to avoiding it during a gybe?
The speed is not necessarily the issue, it's handling them when they capsize. The float high on their sides and drift very quickly downwind, so you can be left behind if you haven't stayed in touch with the boat. They're also relatively difficult to right from capsize unless you've got the knack and a bit of weight. If they turtle, no fun at all. Most people recommend that you practice capsizing and righting the boat in light winds at first before you commit to a windier day where it might not be voluntary... There seem to be a few Dart 16s and 18s so I may get a chance to crew and see how they are.
In terms of people saying that Cats are easy to get into trouble with - in what way do you mean? Is it just that they go fast and when they pitchpole you go flying? It sounds daft but it's probably part of the appeal! Loch Lomond is big enough that running out of space ought not to be too much of an issue.
Is there a trick to avoiding it during a gybe?
Having said that, they are good fun and the dart 16 is designed for single and double handed use. If you want a cat, then the Dart 16 has to be the best option - bullet proof whilst fitting your needs.
That said, the fact that our club has rescue boats in the water every weekend is a good thing and more often than not, I'd be sailing with the OH.
Dart 16 sounds good - I just wish I could get out my head that the 18 will be bait faster...
the trick with a cat i to have your "rescue rope" around the mast / centre of main beam. Its never as easy as it sounds but you then lob that over the high side, get around to teh other side, stand on lee hill and pull like a b
d!!!
definitely easier to right a mono than it is a picklefork though ....
d!!! definitely easier to right a mono than it is a picklefork though ....
Dart 16 is pretty straightforward to right from a capsize solo, one thing I have fitted is a mast float to prevent the boat turtling over completely, that would be very difficult to recover solo.
Ref "getting into trouble" the power is pretty controllable, if you get hit by a gust or get overpowered, you can turn into the wind to reduce the apparent wind - the power comes on pretty quickly on a cat, but can also be dumped just as quickly.
As you get better and the boats get more complex you can use the downhaul controls to manage the power in gusts.
Ref buying a Dart 18 straightaway, I would go out as crew on a 16 and an 18 to get the feel of it, a Dart 18 has quite a bit more power than a 16 and is less forgiving, with less bouyancy in the bows (more potential to pitchpole if you get it wrong) but obviously is more exciting.
The guy I share the Hurricane with went to a Dart 18 from a Laser, and so it can work out OK, but you have to be prepared to swim a bit more
Ref "getting into trouble" the power is pretty controllable, if you get hit by a gust or get overpowered, you can turn into the wind to reduce the apparent wind - the power comes on pretty quickly on a cat, but can also be dumped just as quickly.
As you get better and the boats get more complex you can use the downhaul controls to manage the power in gusts.
Ref buying a Dart 18 straightaway, I would go out as crew on a 16 and an 18 to get the feel of it, a Dart 18 has quite a bit more power than a 16 and is less forgiving, with less bouyancy in the bows (more potential to pitchpole if you get it wrong) but obviously is more exciting.
The guy I share the Hurricane with went to a Dart 18 from a Laser, and so it can work out OK, but you have to be prepared to swim a bit more
Disastrous said:
Supplemental question - what's the difference between the Sprint 15 and Dart 16?
I can't find much reliable info separating them but they seem like they would be answering the same questions?
Sprint 15 is a small Dart 18, was originally called the Dart 15 and hulls are GRP. Quite an active racing scene around the country I believe.I can't find much reliable info separating them but they seem like they would be answering the same questions?
Dart 16 has rotomoulded plastic hulls so is more robust but heavier for it.
Sprint 15 hulls are quite slender and Ive seen them go "down the mine" quite a few times, but the front of the 16 hulls look to have more buoyancy. Never seen one pitchpole but then haven't seen as many sailing. I think dart 16's are popular with sailing schools and holiday companies as the design lends itself to being pulled up and down the beach whereas you might not want to do that with the hulls of a sprint 15 or dart 18.
Dart 16:
Sprint 15 (photo actually at my club yey):
Edited by chrisga on Thursday 31st July 12:33
Disastrous said:
Supplemental question - what's the difference between the Sprint 15 and Dart 16?
I can't find much reliable info separating them but they seem like they would be answering the same questions?
Was also going to mention this in my previous post and forgot I can't find much reliable info separating them but they seem like they would be answering the same questions?
Dart 15/ Sprint is a smaller version of the Dart 18 - fibreglass hulls with a similar shape to the Dart 18, no spinnaker, can be sailed solo or with crew.
Nice boat, main problem is it has even less hull bouyancy forward of the beam, and so pitchpoles even more easily than a Dart 18
In the end the choice boils down to how quickly you can get to grips with cat sailing - it all comes down to time on the water. If you can sail every weekend you will get the basics in a couple of months and could potentially sail any of the Darts under discussion. If you are only going to sail once a month it will take a season to be comfortable on a Dart 15/ 16.
It also depends if you eventually want to move to a spinnaker boat, as only the Dart 16 can take a spinnaker (officially, people have modified D18s)
D16 - basic beginner Cat, can be reefed, wide wind range / solo / with crew / heavy / indestructible / kite available / will outgrow sooner
D15 - Basic Cat solo / with crew / pretty light / less stable / no kite available / will outgrow eventually
D18 - Proper Cat, solo / with crew / reasonable weight / powerful / tricker to get to grips with / no kite
Burrow01 said:
Disastrous said:
Supplemental question - what's the difference between the Sprint 15 and Dart 16?
I can't find much reliable info separating them but they seem like they would be answering the same questions?
Was also going to mention this in my previous post and forgot I can't find much reliable info separating them but they seem like they would be answering the same questions?
Dart 15/ Sprint is a smaller version of the Dart 18 - fibreglass hulls with a similar shape to the Dart 18, no spinnaker, can be sailed solo or with crew.
Nice boat, main problem is it has even less hull bouyancy forward of the beam, and so pitchpoles even more easily than a Dart 18
In the end the choice boils down to how quickly you can get to grips with cat sailing - it all comes down to time on the water. If you can sail every weekend you will get the basics in a couple of months and could potentially sail any of the Darts under discussion. If you are only going to sail once a month it will take a season to be comfortable on a Dart 15/ 16.
It also depends if you eventually want to move to a spinnaker boat, as only the Dart 16 can take a spinnaker (officially, people have modified D18s)
D16 - basic beginner Cat, can be reefed, wide wind range / solo / with crew / heavy / indestructible / kite available / will outgrow sooner
D15 - Basic Cat solo / with crew / pretty light / less stable / no kite available / will outgrow eventually
D18 - Proper Cat, solo / with crew / reasonable weight / powerful / tricker to get to grips with / no kite
From that it looks like the answer would be D16 to a D18 if I get bored. The fact that the 16 can take a spinnaker appeals as an additional level of 'messing' and the fact that you quite often find the wind drops right off on Loch Lomond and the downwind legs can get very dull without a kite.
Assuming both are being sailed well, what is the speed differential in knots between the D16 and D18? I didn't get a chance to check the finish times last weekend but the 18 seemed a deal quicker but so long as the 16 goes fast enough to be exciting (bearing in mind my keelboat will do 6 kts flat out!) it should be ok. Will a 16 reach 16-18 kts?
Dart 16 has a PY equivalent of 869, Dart 18 PY is 821
Cats actually use the SCHRS rating for handicapping, D16 is 1.287, D18 is 1.217 and so over a nominal hour course for a boat with a 1.0 handicap a D18 should take 73 minutes, and a D16 77 minutes
http://www.schrs.com/ratings.php
So the D18 is a bit faster, I've not had a GPS on my D16 but 15knts should be pretty easily achievable
The Hurricane, with a SCHRS of 1.06, will do 18mph without even thinking about it
Cats actually use the SCHRS rating for handicapping, D16 is 1.287, D18 is 1.217 and so over a nominal hour course for a boat with a 1.0 handicap a D18 should take 73 minutes, and a D16 77 minutes
http://www.schrs.com/ratings.php
So the D18 is a bit faster, I've not had a GPS on my D16 but 15knts should be pretty easily achievable
The Hurricane, with a SCHRS of 1.06, will do 18mph without even thinking about it
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