Type 23 frigates
Discussion
dnb said:
What's half as good though? It's a really difficult thing to quantify.
Yeah I suppose it is. From memory Spectar is single faced radar, Sampson double faced. Now this is on the limit of my knowledge or understanding so I could be wrong here...With two faces you can get the radar to do lots of different things at once, track air and surface targets and fire control for weapions. With Spectar having less kit, you can do less with it. Doesn't make it a bad bit of kit. Indeed it may take out functions a frigate does not need. There are weight advantages too. You can mount a lighter radar higher, put it in a spammer ship etc.
dnb said:
I'll bite on the 22 vs 45 thing: What's the 22 going to engage the 45 with? About the only credible things would be sub surface - I expect Sea Viper can deal with all the above water capability of a 22.
Hi dnb. I was specifically talking about the Batch-III 22 with Harpoon. (Or even the Batch I & II with exocet). My point being that for the size of the hull and cost to build the Type-45 is pretty light weight with regards to any kind of Surface to Surface capability. Sure, it has a great RADAR (I was an RP myself) and an excellent point defense system and a Mk 8 gun. Sure they are going to retrofit with Harpoon but you could fit that on to a corvette. Hardly the potent weapon that a Destroyer could have or should have.Not forgetting that their main design concept was to provide a protective AAW bubble around the Carrier during fixed wing air ops, whenever that will be... And I seem to remember the original order was for 13 and we ended up with 6. If there was a business and strategic case to initially order 13 then what happened to allow it to be reduced to 6???
Although I have been 'Outside' now since Dec 2010 I still get a little bit upset at the diminished Naval presence of an Island nation who realize on 90% of its products arriving from sea. I joined up in 75 and remember what the Solent looked like for the Silver Jubilee....
I really don't think a lack of anti-ship missile is that big a deal.
It is a nice to have bit of kit but I really can. Not see a future operation where two warships slug it out trading punches like a WWII battle.
For taking out ships, a SSN is a much better bet, also an aircraft. The F35, which will be in the carriers the 45s will protect will most likely carry the Naval Strike Missile. Similarly, the 45s can carry two Sea Skua equipped Lynx, which will one day be replaced by Wildcat, carrying the FASGW - an anti ship missile that will replace Sea Skua.
The big drawback to the Type 45 is the lack of "strike length" silos that would allow them to deploy land attack weapons like TLAM (Tomahawk) or the naval version of Storm Shadow called Naval SCALP.
Another drawback is the lack of the ability to take out ballistic missiles. This is the new big thing in AAW warship specs. I imagine Sampson, Smart-L and PAAMS (Sea Viper) will get this eventually.
The high end and high value Type 45 capabilities in my mind make the argument for a class of less sophisticated escorts. A modern day Type 21 anyone?
It is a nice to have bit of kit but I really can. Not see a future operation where two warships slug it out trading punches like a WWII battle.
For taking out ships, a SSN is a much better bet, also an aircraft. The F35, which will be in the carriers the 45s will protect will most likely carry the Naval Strike Missile. Similarly, the 45s can carry two Sea Skua equipped Lynx, which will one day be replaced by Wildcat, carrying the FASGW - an anti ship missile that will replace Sea Skua.
The big drawback to the Type 45 is the lack of "strike length" silos that would allow them to deploy land attack weapons like TLAM (Tomahawk) or the naval version of Storm Shadow called Naval SCALP.
Another drawback is the lack of the ability to take out ballistic missiles. This is the new big thing in AAW warship specs. I imagine Sampson, Smart-L and PAAMS (Sea Viper) will get this eventually.
The high end and high value Type 45 capabilities in my mind make the argument for a class of less sophisticated escorts. A modern day Type 21 anyone?
Speculatore said:
Looking at the Type-45... It speaks volumes that even today I would rather be on a Batch-III in a face off with a '45'. Where the hell is its Surface to Surface capability?? Destroyer...Don't make me laugh..
Since WWII the Navy have rated ship by role, not by size. The Type 22's where massive for a frigate, but they where anti-sub ships so their frigates. Anti-Aircraft ships are all rated as destroyers, so you end up with the smaller Type 42, and the under-gunned Type being rated as such.wildcat45 said:
Look back at the USN Perry Class of 30 years ago. A lot of the radar gear was internationally marketed Dutch Hollandse Signaalapperaten stuff, the gun an off the shelf Italian OTO Melara.
Thats mainly as the Perry class where not designed to keep up with the main fleet. They where designed to protect the troop transports bringing the bulk of US forces across to Europe once war with Russia kicked off. Freeing up with better equiped ships to protect the carriers. From wiki:
"The Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigates were designed primarily as anti-aircraft and anti-submarine warfare guided-missile warships intended to provide open-ocean escort of amphibious warfare ships and merchant ship convoys in moderate threat environments in a potential war with the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact countries."
wildcat45 said:
Another drawback is the lack of the ability to take out ballistic missiles. This is the new big thing in AAW warship specs. I imagine Sampson, Smart-L and PAAMS (Sea Viper) will get this eventually.
Think Daring proved the concept on this earlier this year...Aster BMD before too long I guess.wildcat45 said:
The high end and high value Type 45 capabilities in my mind make the argument for a class of less sophisticated escorts. A modern day Type 21 anyone?
Definitely. The fleet needs (lots) more hulls that can do a little bit of everything. Drug busting / Disaster Relief / NGS / Counter Piracy ops don't need all singing, all dancing platforms...even a slightly larger version of the new OPVs would be just fine. Helo/4.5"/Harpoon/ESSM...job done.DMN said:
Thats mainly as the Perry class where not designed to keep up with the main fleet. They where designed to protect the troop transports bringing the bulk of US forces across to Europe once war with Russia kicked off. Freeing up with better equiped ships to protect the carriers.
From wiki:
"The Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigates were designed primarily as anti-aircraft and anti-submarine warfare guided-missile warships intended to provide open-ocean escort of amphibious warfare ships and merchant ship convoys in moderate threat environments in a potential war with the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact countries."
It was still a good ship, for what it did and they seem to have found roles with navies on the second hand market. It wasn't a good plated design, and I think that's an important lesson for the RN to bear in mind.From wiki:
"The Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigates were designed primarily as anti-aircraft and anti-submarine warfare guided-missile warships intended to provide open-ocean escort of amphibious warfare ships and merchant ship convoys in moderate threat environments in a potential war with the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact countries."
donutsina911 said:
Definitely. The fleet needs (lots) more hulls that can do a little bit of everything. Drug busting / Disaster Relief / NGS / Counter Piracy ops don't need all singing, all dancing platforms...even a slightly larger version of the new OPVs would be just fine. Helo/4.5"/Harpoon/ESSM...job done.
It's about getting the design and capability right for the price.Very easy to turn a great OPV into a expensive but s
t frigate.DK Brown who designed the Castle Class wrote about it.
In 1980/1 when the Castles were being built and the 23 was this armed down sonar tug thought was given to perhaps expanding the Castoe design.
As an OPV with a 40mm gun, decent sensors and a flight deck it was great for fighting a future Cod War.
He wrote about adding a Sonar to the design, then perhaps a longer hull (The design allowed for this) adding Exocet and perhaps an OTO. Melara 76mm gun.
Thie additions would send the price way up when you add crew an ops room, bigger galley and the like. The price would be getting into Type 23 territory. But for that miney you would have a slow noisy propulsion plant, no air defence missiles, no magazine space for things like torpedoes, no aircraft accomodation.
A pretty crap and flawed frigate adapted from a perfectly good design for an OPV.
So I think the RN needs a Type 21 for the 21st Century, but a ship that is a proper sized frigate, with commercially sourced -good enough for the job but not gold plated - equipment.
If that means you buy fewer of the high end dogs b
ks Type 26 but more of the affordable design then that's great.There are plenty of Frigate designs we could buy, plenty of weapons where the R and D has been done.
The spec I would go for would be something like this.
4-5000 tons.
Diesel power, long range 25 knots.
Reused 4.5 inch gun from RN stock.
SeaRam or similar for air defence.
Second Hand Harpoon from RN stock.
Sensors like Sea Giraffe and commercial market sonars.
Space for RHIBs, combined hangar/cargo/UAV space.
Space for a small embarked military force.
Able to accomodate and operate Merlin or Wildcat.
Use or adapt an existing design, get it built by Daewoo, and get Devonport, Pompey or Rosyth to install the weapins and electronics.
Not he perfect frigate, but good enough.
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