Akula/Typhoon Class
Discussion
V8 Fettler said:
rhinochopig said:
Godalmighty83 said:
So massive and advanced they crippled the Soviet Union with their immense price tag.
Can you imagine a Royal Navy admiral proposing a 50kt Battleship built from titanium and then a politician saying 'no, one wont do, build six'.
Wrong sub. The Alphas was the Ti hulled, lead-biz NSRP powered, small interceptor SSNs. Typhoons were bombers and made of steel IIRC and they didn't do anywhere near 50kts. Can you imagine a Royal Navy admiral proposing a 50kt Battleship built from titanium and then a politician saying 'no, one wont do, build six'.
The lead-biz design was a total disaster though as it required massive shore side services to stop the plant freezing when it was shutdown.
Alphas cost the UK a lot of money as the Spearfish torp was born out of fears of the Alpha being untouchable by the period weapon systems. Think the US ran a similar torp programme too.
Doogz - The alfa's exact top speed is probably still unknown to all but a few. But 50kts is probably in the right ball park give or take 10kts. It was designed as rapid respone interceptor and was a massive shock to the west as it was a completely new class of submarine and was quantum leap in naval architecture, materials and production tech, and design features. Russia's Concord moment if you will.
At the time of its launch it was almost untouchable by the west's weapon systems as it was not magnetic, could dive deeper than our torps and could pretty much out manoeuvre and out run them.
What is remarkable is that it's still more advanced in a lot of ways than what the west have today. For example, the alfa has a crew rescue system that can take the whole crew off in one hit from big depths - essential the sail detaches.
The saving grace for us was its cost and the tech was so advanced it suffered from lots of reliability issues.
rhinochopig said:
The lead-biz design was a total disaster though as it required massive shore side services to stop the plant freezing when it was shutdown.
I remember one reported being scrapped, as the shore side system failed and the entire reactor solidified. Would not want to be the person reporting that little incident in the USSR. Instant Siberian holiday if you lucky.
From Wiki RE Alfa- August 8, 1982 – While on duty in the Barents Sea, there was a release of liquid metal coolant from the reactor of the Soviet Project 705 Alfa-class submarine K-123. The accident was caused by a leak in the steam generator. Approximately two tons of metal alloy leaked into the reactor compartment, irreparably damaging the reactor such that it had to be replaced. It took nine years to repair the submarine.
I also read something in a Submarine history book that the Alfa class buzzed a NATO exercise at 48Knots. That was the trigger for the torpedo development. Apparently, much damage to external hull fixtures and fittings was the cost of such speed!
I also read something in a Submarine history book that the Alfa class buzzed a NATO exercise at 48Knots. That was the trigger for the torpedo development. Apparently, much damage to external hull fixtures and fittings was the cost of such speed!
QuantumTokoloshi said:
rhinochopig said:
The lead-biz design was a total disaster though as it required massive shore side services to stop the plant freezing when it was shutdown.
I remember one reported being scrapped, as the shore side system failed and the entire reactor solidified. Would not want to be the person reporting that little incident in the USSR. Instant Siberian holiday if you lucky.
Fabulously thermal efficiency though - when it was working.
The UK experimented with sodium/potassium designs for civil use.
stevesingo said:
I also read something in a Submarine history book that the Alfa class buzzed a NATO exercise at 48Knots. That was the trigger for the torpedo development. Apparently, much damage to external hull fixtures and fittings was the cost of such speed!
I'd imagine the propellor would be toast after a speed run like that, even at depth it would be difficult to avoid cavitation.rhinochopig said:
The UK experimented with sodium/potassium designs for civil use.
We built 2 experimental ones at Dounreay. Use of NaK is pretty much mandatory if you want to build a fast neutron breeder reactor; loads of folk have given it a go and spent billions for no return, the Russians still have functioning breeders but everyone else has pretty much thrown in the towel for the time being. Breeders are pretty tricky to get right.
rhinochopig said:
Oops - well spotted. That'll teach me to type in a hurry.
Doogz - The alfa's exact top speed is probably still unknown to all but a few. But 50kts is probably in the right ball park give or take 10kts. It was designed as rapid respone interceptor and was a massive shock to the west as it was a completely new class of submarine and was quantum leap in naval architecture, materials and production tech, and design features. Russia's Concord moment if you will.
At the time of its launch it was almost untouchable by the west's weapon systems as it was not magnetic, could dive deeper than our torps and could pretty much out manoeuvre and out run them.
What is remarkable is that it's still more advanced in a lot of ways than what the west have today. For example, the alfa has a crew rescue system that can take the whole crew off in one hit from big depths - essential the sail detaches.
The saving grace for us was its cost and the tech was so advanced it suffered from lots of reliability issues.
Being able to dive several times deeper than every other submarine wasn't really that useful though. If you're hunting other subs you won't find them down there.Doogz - The alfa's exact top speed is probably still unknown to all but a few. But 50kts is probably in the right ball park give or take 10kts. It was designed as rapid respone interceptor and was a massive shock to the west as it was a completely new class of submarine and was quantum leap in naval architecture, materials and production tech, and design features. Russia's Concord moment if you will.
At the time of its launch it was almost untouchable by the west's weapon systems as it was not magnetic, could dive deeper than our torps and could pretty much out manoeuvre and out run them.
What is remarkable is that it's still more advanced in a lot of ways than what the west have today. For example, the alfa has a crew rescue system that can take the whole crew off in one hit from big depths - essential the sail detaches.
The saving grace for us was its cost and the tech was so advanced it suffered from lots of reliability issues.
Dr JonboyG said:
rhinochopig said:
Oops - well spotted. That'll teach me to type in a hurry.
Doogz - The alfa's exact top speed is probably still unknown to all but a few. But 50kts is probably in the right ball park give or take 10kts. It was designed as rapid respone interceptor and was a massive shock to the west as it was a completely new class of submarine and was quantum leap in naval architecture, materials and production tech, and design features. Russia's Concord moment if you will.
At the time of its launch it was almost untouchable by the west's weapon systems as it was not magnetic, could dive deeper than our torps and could pretty much out manoeuvre and out run them.
What is remarkable is that it's still more advanced in a lot of ways than what the west have today. For example, the alfa has a crew rescue system that can take the whole crew off in one hit from big depths - essential the sail detaches.
The saving grace for us was its cost and the tech was so advanced it suffered from lots of reliability issues.
Being able to dive several times deeper than every other submarine wasn't really that useful though. If you're hunting other subs you won't find them down there.Doogz - The alfa's exact top speed is probably still unknown to all but a few. But 50kts is probably in the right ball park give or take 10kts. It was designed as rapid respone interceptor and was a massive shock to the west as it was a completely new class of submarine and was quantum leap in naval architecture, materials and production tech, and design features. Russia's Concord moment if you will.
At the time of its launch it was almost untouchable by the west's weapon systems as it was not magnetic, could dive deeper than our torps and could pretty much out manoeuvre and out run them.
What is remarkable is that it's still more advanced in a lot of ways than what the west have today. For example, the alfa has a crew rescue system that can take the whole crew off in one hit from big depths - essential the sail detaches.
The saving grace for us was its cost and the tech was so advanced it suffered from lots of reliability issues.
- First, the sea is made up of thermoclines and pycnoclines. These reflect active sonar and target emitted noise. The deeper you can go, the more layers you have to play with. They're Handy if you want to hide.
- Second, being able to out-run AND out-dive the West's extant weapon systems of the time was a pretty handy trick. Just keep heading to the bottom until the following torp stopped working.
rhinochopig said:
It is and there are several reasons why:
No, it evidently isn't, or they'd have built more than two of them, and their more recent subs would be able to do the same thing. Plus the Americans would have copied the idea. - First, the sea is made up of thermoclines and pycnoclines. These reflect active sonar and target emitted noise. The deeper you can go, the more layers you have to play with. They're Handy if you want to hide.
- Second, being able to out-run AND out-dive the West's extant weapon systems of the time was a pretty handy trick. Just keep heading to the bottom until the following torp stopped working.
Dr JonboyG said:
No, it evidently isn't, or they'd have built more than two of them, and their more recent subs would be able to do the same thing. Plus the Americans would have copied the idea.
There was 8 ti hulled subs built, 7 Alfa class (Lead Bismuth Reactor) plus 1 Papa class (2x PWR reactors). The problem wasn't with the capabilities, which in terms of depth and speed, was top of the trumps, the enemy was cost. They were known as the Golden Fish!Dr JonboyG said:
rhinochopig said:
It is and there are several reasons why:
No, it evidently isn't, or they'd have built more than two of them, and their more recent subs would be able to do the same thing. Plus the Americans would have copied the idea. - First, the sea is made up of thermoclines and pycnoclines. These reflect active sonar and target emitted noise. The deeper you can go, the more layers you have to play with. They're Handy if you want to hide.
- Second, being able to out-run AND out-dive the West's extant weapon systems of the time was a pretty handy trick. Just keep heading to the bottom until the following torp stopped working.
Reliable operation of Alfa tech was clearly beyond the Soviets, and is still probably beyond the capability of any likely participants.
V8 Fettler said:
Dr JonboyG said:
rhinochopig said:
It is and there are several reasons why:
No, it evidently isn't, or they'd have built more than two of them, and their more recent subs would be able to do the same thing. Plus the Americans would have copied the idea. - First, the sea is made up of thermoclines and pycnoclines. These reflect active sonar and target emitted noise. The deeper you can go, the more layers you have to play with. They're Handy if you want to hide.
- Second, being able to out-run AND out-dive the West's extant weapon systems of the time was a pretty handy trick. Just keep heading to the bottom until the following torp stopped working.
Reliable operation of Alfa tech was clearly beyond the Soviets, and is still probably beyond the capability of any likely participants.
hidetheelephants said:
When they're travelling at 30+kts you don't need sophisticated ASW to detect them, all you need is an eartrumpet; there was nothing stealthy about Alfas and they would have been utter garbage at convoy interdiction, that's the job of Charlies and Akulas. Alfas were supposedly to be attack dogs that hang around SSBNs to discourage couterforce action.
Hear it above several ships breaking up and residual explosions? Unlikely. And if it was detected, attack it with what? See Type 21 comparison.I would be surprised if an SSBN would want any friendly sub anywhere nearby.
Dr JonboyG said:
rhinochopig said:
It is and there are several reasons why:
No, it evidently isn't, or they'd have built more than two of them, and their more recent subs would be able to do the same thing. Plus the Americans would have copied the idea. - First, the sea is made up of thermoclines and pycnoclines. These reflect active sonar and target emitted noise. The deeper you can go, the more layers you have to play with. They're Handy if you want to hide.
- Second, being able to out-run AND out-dive the West's extant weapon systems of the time was a pretty handy trick. Just keep heading to the bottom until the following torp stopped working.
1. The reason they didn't build more is the same reason why we didn't build lots of Concords or the US B2s - they were simply too expensive to build and maintain. Even the Russians called them the Golden Fish due to their cost.
2. Their recent sub designs do incorporate a lot of the S&T that was trialled on the Afla class.
3. The Americans did 'copy' the concept to a degree - the Seawolf class was /is a highly advanced, deep diving, and fast Attack Sub designed specifically to counter the threats from the Alfa and its possible successors. And do you know what, even without the Ti hull and huge levels of automation that the Alfa sported the US found them too expensive to build and run, which supports my first point.
4. They did build more of them:
K-64 1968 1969 1971 decommissioned
K-123 1967 1976 1977 decommissioned
K-316 1969 1974 1978 decommissioned
K-432 1967 1977 1978 decommissioned
K-373 1972 1978 1979 decommissioned
K-493 1972 1980 1981 decommissioned
K-463 1975 1981 1981 decommissioned
And cleverer people than me obviously thought they were a threat as US and the Yanks spent several hundred million pounds/dollars designing new torps to specifically counter the threat they posed.
Cheers
Rhino (Former Principal Designer on the Astute Class SSN)
rhinochopig said:
Dr JonboyG said:
rhinochopig said:
It is and there are several reasons why:
No, it evidently isn't, or they'd have built more than two of them, and their more recent subs would be able to do the same thing. Plus the Americans would have copied the idea. - First, the sea is made up of thermoclines and pycnoclines. These reflect active sonar and target emitted noise. The deeper you can go, the more layers you have to play with. They're Handy if you want to hide.
- Second, being able to out-run AND out-dive the West's extant weapon systems of the time was a pretty handy trick. Just keep heading to the bottom until the following torp stopped working.
1. The reason they didn't build more is the same reason why we didn't build lots of Concords or the US B2s - they were simply too expensive to build and maintain. Even the Russians called them the Golden Fish due to their cost.
2. Their recent sub designs do incorporate a lot of the S&T that was trialled on the Afla class.
3. The Americans did 'copy' the concept to a degree - the Seawolf class was /is a highly advanced, deep diving, and fast Attack Sub designed specifically to counter the threats from the Alfa and its possible successors. And do you know what, even without the Ti hull and huge levels of automation that the Alfa sported the US found them too expensive to build and run, which supports my first point.
4. They did build more of them:
K-64 1968 1969 1971 decommissioned
K-123 1967 1976 1977 decommissioned
K-316 1969 1974 1978 decommissioned
K-432 1967 1977 1978 decommissioned
K-373 1972 1978 1979 decommissioned
K-493 1972 1980 1981 decommissioned
K-463 1975 1981 1981 decommissioned
And cleverer people than me obviously thought they were a threat as US and the Yanks spent several hundred million pounds/dollars designing new torps to specifically counter the threat they posed.
Cheers
Rhino (Former Principal Designer on the Astute Class SSN)
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