RAF jets in Iraq

[Hooli]

Simpo Two said:

No but how much did the missile cost that blew up the $2,000 pick-up?

A Spitfire could have one the same job.

Seems a good excuse to recreate a few real Typhoons? Much tougher than Spits & carry more rockets.

[IanMorewood]

Simpo Two said:

I understood from another poster than Cyprus was too far away for helicopter operations. But whatever, it seems an awful waste of resources using RAF jets to attack pick-ups. I'm sure the operation is more for PR than military sense, but agree it is good training/target practice

Ah yes too far realistically for helicopters, but then you would be pretty far from the sea and your carrier if that was your bag.

[IanMorewood]

Hooli said:

Seems a good excuse to recreate a few real Typhoons? Much tougher than Spits & carry more rockets.

Super Tucano would do the job, Brazilians manage heavy machine guns, cannons, rockets, air to air missiles and 500 pounder bombs on theirs. However the RAF would have to buy some more or convert existing ones as UK Plc bought the trainer only version.

[eharding]

IanMorewood said:

Super Tucano would do the job, Brazilians manage heavy machine guns, cannons, rockets, air to air missiles and 500 pounder bombs on theirs. However the RAF would have to buy some more or convert existing ones as UK Plc bought the trainer only version.

Urban legend has it that the manufacturing tolerances of the Belfast-built Tucanos would mean that you would have to find bombs in the 495 to 505 pound range, 20mm +/- 1mm cannon shells, and develop a flexible mounting scheme based around Velcro for the external stores.

[dr_gn]

IanMorewood said:

Hooli said:

Seems a good excuse to recreate a few real Typhoons? Much tougher than Spits & carry more rockets.

Super Tucano would do the job, Brazilians manage heavy machine guns, cannons, rockets, air to air missiles and 500 pounder bombs on theirs. However the RAF would have to buy some more or convert existing ones as UK Plc bought the trainer only version.

I'd be far happier dropping a bomb from as far away as possible. I'd guess being hit and getting captured wouldn't necessarily end well.

[Ginetta G15 Girl]

eharding said:

Urban legend has it that the manufacturing tolerances of the Belfast-built Tucanos...

When I was at Finningley one of the Tin Cans took a rather nasty bird strike. Spares had to be manufactured by Shorts and sent over from NI.

You guessed it, none of the new parts fitted.

[maffski]

Max_Torque said:

Simpo Two said:

No but how much did the missile cost that blew up the $2,000 pick-up?

A Spitfire could have one the same job.

Apparently, the Brimstone guided bomb/missile cost £175k a pop (or a drop/bang)!

And you need a £10M Tornado, with a £6M flight crew, and a £35k/hr air time cost to take out that Hilux..........

The missiles are lifed, so you either blow up something someone else has paid for, or pay for a training target to blow up - so blowing up their pick-up was actually a cost cutting measure.

[Simpo Two]

maffski said:

The missiles are lifed, so you either blow up something someone else has paid for, or pay for a training target to blow up

Suddenly it all makes sense

[tight5]

is this type of mission a case for AC130s ?

[dazwalsh]

cant they have a remote launch vehicle or a boat where they launch missiles from, and some guy operating a high level drone "spotting" the targets accurately? I've not got a clue personally but with the current system it does seem like an awful sum of money to blow up a Hilux.

[IanMorewood]

Missiles especially ones you want to either go a long way or hit what you are targeting tend to be pricey.

Cheap option would be a UAV (drone) with some 2.7 inch rockets.

[Hooli]

maffski said:

Max_Torque said:

Simpo Two said:

No but how much did the missile cost that blew up the $2,000 pick-up?

A Spitfire could have one the same job.

Apparently, the Brimstone guided bomb/missile cost £175k a pop (or a drop/bang)!

And you need a £10M Tornado, with a £6M flight crew, and a £35k/hr air time cost to take out that Hilux..........

The missiles are lifed, so you either blow up something someone else has paid for, or pay for a training target to blow up - so blowing up their pick-up was actually a cost cutting measure.

[yellowjack]

maffski said:

Max_Torque said:

Simpo Two said:

No but how much did the missile cost that blew up the $2,000 pick-up?

A Spitfire could have one the same job.

Apparently, the Brimstone guided bomb/missile cost £175k a pop (or a drop/bang)!

And you need a £10M Tornado, with a £6M flight crew, and a £35k/hr air time cost to take out that Hilux..........

The missiles are lifed, so you either blow up something someone else has paid for, or pay for a training target to blow up - so blowing up their pick-up was actually a cost cutting measure.

Not only are they 'lifed' in a 'use by date' sense, but they are also limited in the number of hours they can spend being rattled around slung under an airframe. Much depends on the type of munition and the type of aircraft, with different combinations resulting in different time limits. If a munition isn't dropped/launched/fired before it reaches it's airframe hours limit, it'll need to be destroyed on the ground. Great training for EOD teams, but expensive in the long run. Hence why the 'overkill' in some cases, if the flight crews are aware of the upcoming limits on their ordnance.

I wasn't RAF, but Royal Engineers. When we taught the Giant Viper/Python mine clearance system courses, we'd cross our fingers and pray for a 'life limited' live hose to be delivered, so that it would blow up when launched. The alternative was firing the inert 'training' hose, which was heavy, and horribly greasy, weighed half a ton and needed to be stuffed back into it's crate after firing, and in a specific arrangement of layers so that it could be re-used. I'd say only about 20% to 30% of launches were 'live' hoses, though, as it wasn't something manufactured in large numbers. I also remember when the Centurion AVRE with the 165mm demolition gun went out of service. The stockpile of 165mm HESH ammo for them had to be got rid of, and it was cheaper to demount a couple of the guns, out of the turrets, and trawl for qualified gunners, and fire the whole lot off on the ranges on Salisbury Plain than it was to dismantle the shells and dispose of them at Shoeburyness. QinetiQ at Shoeburyness are the MOD's UK disposal agency for the "Safe disposal of stressed or life-expired ammunition"...

http://www.shoeburyness.qinetiq.com/about/Pages/ou...

...and part of their remit is testing ordnance to discover just how long it can be slung under an aircraft for whilst retaining the ability to 'function as intended'.

[wolfracesonic]

If top Gear is anything to go by, that Hilux has probably been patched up and is now back in service!

[chuntington101]

IanMorewood said:

Missiles especially ones you want to either go a long way or hit what you are targeting tend to be pricey.

Cheap option would be a UAV (drone) with some 2.7 inch rockets.

Hmm the explosion was too small for a hellfire or derived missile I think. They tend to make quite a mess. It also most looked like an inert round hitting the truck as there was very little (read no) splash damage or real curator left behind!

Forgot about the 70mm laser guide rockets that can be used to offer 4x's the capacity of hellfire's. Could be a tungsten leaser rocket.

What the rest of you think?

[Simpo Two]

chuntington101 said:

What the rest of you think?

Actually I think Hurricane IICs (4x20mm cannon) would be more than adequate. A pick-up truck in 2014 is no harder to hit than a pick-up truck in 1942!

[Dr Jekyll]

The US air force did try out turboprop versions of the P51 Mustang for just this kind of job in the early 80's. A turbine Typhoon would be an interesting concept.

[Simpo Two]

Or just pop some guns on a Tucano?

[dr_gn]

Would you guys honestly want to be flying around that craphole at a low enough level to use guns on a target? Can you imagine the consequences of the aircrew being captured?

As I said, I'd want to drop whatever I'm dropping from a long, long way away.

[IanMorewood]

Simpo Two said:

Or just pop some guns on a Tucano?

Trouble with that is range, the Tucano with stores is good for about 350 miles so unless you base it in Turkey you would be stuck. Turkey especially in the border regions doesn't strike me as all that safe so again you would be talking about a large scale deployment for a version of an aircraft that isn't in the UK fleet.