what has our military lost during austerity measures

[aeropilot]

Crossflow Kid said:

Fishtigua said:

Slightly O/T but has the Typhoon/Eurofighter been in action yet? We've spent all this money on the blasted thing but I haven't seen any reports of it firing a single thing in anger. Is this because it's too shiny and new?.

Define "action".

Tiffie's dropped ordnance 'in action' in Libya a few years back.

[anonymous-user]

Tango13 said:

Crossflow Kid said:

Fishtigua said:

Slightly O/T but has the Typhoon/Eurofighter been in action yet? We've spent all this money on the blasted thing but I haven't seen any reports of it firing a single thing in anger. Is this because it's too shiny and new?.

Define "action".
As a deterrent it seems to be working. Haven't seen any Bears over Basingstoke just yet.
Our nuclear subs have never fired in anger either.

Apart from HMS Conqueror in 1982

I wasn't clear.....when I said nuclear subs, I mean nuclear armed, not powered.

[anonymous-user]

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

Those Pinzgauer, Mastiff, Wolfhound, Ridgeback machines - who / where makes those? Are they UK companies?

They seem to be put together from a variety of sources.
South Africa seems to be emerging as a producer of medium armoured vehicle designs (like Ridgeback, Cougar) which are then built under license elsewhere. The UK seem to take them and bolt on extra good home-grown stuff, much like they do with the Chinook. US aircraft, lots of UK bolt-on bits.
Pinzgauer originated in Austria but the most recent batch were produced by BAe in that hotbed of military vehicle development.....Guildford.
Jackal (which is like a Land Rover WMIK's bigger, harder cousin from the wrong side of town) is built in the West Country.
The poor old Defender's demise has been largely down to it being essentailly a civilian vehicle, modified for military use and in recent years it just groans under the weight of armour, ECM and other kit whereas the contenders for replacement have on the whole been conceived, designed and built as armoured from the outset.
Going back 30-40 years the Series IIIs in Belfast struggled with the then very advanced but now totally obsolete Makralon bolt-on armour. I guess it's just taken a while for the obvious answer to come to fruition.

Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 4th October 22:29

[mph1977]

Dr Jekyll said:

It has, but only against ground targets which is not what it's primarily supposed to be for. As you suggest it's possibly to justify the expense and also perhaps as a demonstration to possible export customers.

It was supposed to be primarily for air to air engagements, but the RAF haven't fired an air to air missile in anger for, well, ever so far as I know. Eric?

Typhoon is a multi role aircraft and has was designed as such from the outset, i think people are getting confused because

1. the F3 Tornado fleet was drawn down first ( OOS 2011) while the GR4 is still operational ( however some GR4 squadron number plates are designated for the RAF component of the F35 fleet)
2. the typhoon was declared operational in air defence roles before other roles
3. ther;es only one fleet of Typhoons and they are painted grey ...

[Dr Jekyll]

mph1977 said:

Typhoon is a multi role aircraft and has was designed as such from the outset, i think people are getting confused because

1. the F3 Tornado fleet was drawn down first ( OOS 2011) while the GR4 is still operational ( however some GR4 squadron number plates are designated for the RAF component of the F35 fleet)
2. the typhoon was declared operational in air defence roles before other roles
3. ther;es only one fleet of Typhoons and they are painted grey ...

I thought the GR4 Tornados were painted grey as well now.

[aeropilot]

mph1977 said:

Dr Jekyll said:

It has, but only against ground targets which is not what it's primarily supposed to be for. As you suggest it's possibly to justify the expense and also perhaps as a demonstration to possible export customers.

It was supposed to be primarily for air to air engagements, but the RAF haven't fired an air to air missile in anger for, well, ever so far as I know. Eric?

Typhoon is a multi role aircraft and has was designed as such from the outset

Sort of.....

It was always the RAF's intention to operate the Typhoon in the multi-role, but not the intention of the other partner nations, which is why it's multi-role fit is behind the curve, as the RAF had to wait until all the other nations had their aircraft in service to replace their ageing air defence fleets before the RAF could commence it's AG role development of the Typhoon.

[RobGT81]

ecsrobin said:

All of them apart from the nimrod you could say were coming to the end of their useable life or have a replacement or are due a replacement soon.

Harrier had plenty of life left in it and its replacement isn't exactly fit for purpose just yet.

[mph1977]

aeropilot said:

mph1977 said:

Dr Jekyll said:

It has, but only against ground targets which is not what it's primarily supposed to be for. As you suggest it's possibly to justify the expense and also perhaps as a demonstration to possible export customers.

It was supposed to be primarily for air to air engagements, but the RAF haven't fired an air to air missile in anger for, well, ever so far as I know. Eric?

Typhoon is a multi role aircraft and has was designed as such from the outset

Sort of.....

It was always the RAF's intention to operate the Typhoon in the multi-role, but not the intention of the other partner nations, which is why it's multi-role fit is behind the curve, as the RAF had to wait until all the other nations had their aircraft in service to replace their ageing air defence fleets before the RAF could commence it's AG role development of the Typhoon.

which reflects the poor take up of the Tornado ADV not helped by the initial fielding of F2s with 'blue circle' radar ...

[Seeker UK]

Fishtigua said:

Slightly O/T but has the Typhoon/Eurofighter been in action yet?

Typhoon is often in action. It just doesn't shoot...

[Yertis]

Seeker UK said:

Typhoon is often in action. It just doesn't shoot...

Do the Russians look at these and think "hmmm, not bad..." or do they think "lol, still not as good as our MiG/Sukhoi thingies".

[mph1977]

Yertis said:

Seeker UK said:

Typhoon is often in action. It just doesn't shoot...

Do the Russians look at these and think "hmmm, not bad..." or do they think "lol, still not as good as our MiG/Sukhoi thingies".

the Russians are a generation behind they are still flying Flankers and Fulcrums as their first line which are fundamentally designs contemporay with the F15 and Tornado and representing '4th generation' designs although the Ltest versions are 4 + / 4.5 gen ( the .5 being brought about by the F22 and F35 being classifed as 5th generation meaning Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen and the later generations of the F15/16/18 are 4.5 G - much as there were references to 2.5 and 3.5 G with regard to cellualr data services because the next whole number generation had been defined ) .

the continued use of the TU- 95 is matched by the continued use of the B-52 and had it not been canned the MRA4 Nimrod...

[Yertis]

So Eurofighter is superior to Flucrum/Flanker? I'm so out of the loop these days. Also is not the 'generation' thing not te whole story? ie a MiG 19, which I would guess at Gen 2, could give the F4 (I assume Gen 3) a bad headache.

[mph1977]

doogz said:

Yertis said:

So Eurofighter is superior to Flucrum/Flanker? I'm so out of the loop these days. Also is not the 'generation' thing not te whole story? ie a MiG 19, which I would guess at Gen 2, could give the F4 (I assume Gen 3) a bad headache.

Yes, but I'd imagine a PAK FA T50 would dish out a beating in any close range air-air combat/manouverability contest. Not in service yet though.

part of the issue is thewhole trying to do everything with one type of aircraft

the tornado was either an interdictor or a BVR interceptor , neither role was it really a down and dirty dog fighter or CAS aircraft as at the time of it's design dogo fighting was thought to be dead and there were other aircraft to do CAS etc ( jaguars, harriers etc)

if you define an aircraft by the ordanance it carries the worlds biggest 'multi role' figther aircraft was the south atlantic fit Nimrod MR2 with sidewinders as well as the usual anti shipping capabilities and if push came to chave the ability to carry normal bombs and the variousmembers of the We177 and B57 family of instant sunshine...

[Ginetta G15 Girl]

mph1977 said:

if you define an aircraft by the ordanance it carries the worlds biggest 'multi role' figther aircraft was the south atlantic fit Nimrod MR2 with sidewinders as well as the usual anti shipping capabilities and if push came to chave the ability to carry normal bombs and the variousmembers of the We177 and B57 family of instant sunshine...

Certainly MR2 was referred to as 'The World's Biggest Fighter' on the Sqn 'zaps'.

However, Falklands era MR2 had no ASuW capability since Nimrod MR2 had never been operationally fitted with Martel, and the AS10/11 system had been removed. Indeed, fitting of Sidewinder itself would negate any capability owing to alterations in the wiring loom to the pylons as well as the fact that the pylon was now dedicated to Sidewinder (both the Martel and AS10/11 fits being pylon mounted).

Harpoon capablity on Nimrod (deployed by gravity dropping from the bomb bay) did not arrive until the mid/late 1980s.

While 1000lb trials had been carried out it was doubtful if you'd actually hit anything and there were questions as to the safe release of that store.

Nimrod was never cleared for WE177.

I would suggest that MR2 reached the zenith of it's capability during Op TELIC with the fitment of the increased defensive aids suite and the FLIR turret.

Edited by Ginetta G15 Girl on Tuesday 7th October 18:05

[mph1977]

Ginetta G15 Girl said:

mph1977 said:

if you define an aircraft by the ordanance it carries the worlds biggest 'multi role' figther aircraft was the south atlantic fit Nimrod MR2 with sidewinders as well as the usual anti shipping capabilities and if push came to chave the ability to carry normal bombs and the variousmembers of the We177 and B57 family of instant sunshine...

Certainly MR2 was referred to as 'The World's Biggest Fighter' on the Sqn 'zaps'.

However, Falklands era MR2 had no ASuW capability since Nimrod MR2 had never been operationally fitted with Martel, and the AS10/11 system had been removed. Indeed, fitting of Sidewinder itself would negate any capability owing to alterations in the wiring loom to the pylons as well as the fact that the pylon was now dedicated to Sidewinder (both the Martel and AS10/11 fits being pylon mounted).

Harpoon capablity on Nimrod (deployed by gravity dropping from the bomb bay) did not arrive until the mid/late 1980s.

While 1000lb trials had been carried out it was doubtful if you'd actually hit anything and there were questions as to the safe release of that store.

Nimrod was never cleared for WE177.

I would suggest that MR2 reached the zenith of it's capability during Op TELIC with the fitment of the increased defensive aids suite and the FLIR turret.

Edited by Ginetta G15 Girl on Tuesday 7th October 18:05

I stand corrected with regard to the sidewinder stuff, i must have misread the mateiral that implied the sidewinder pylons were seperate to the ones that carried AS10/11 and Martel , ditto with regard to we 177

the 1000lb bomb stuff well the Nimrod had neither the visual bombing capability or the radar set up of Canberras or the V-Bombers so the accruacy would be unsupridingly limited ...

[Badgerboy]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

The aforementioned Phantom pilot was one of my instructors, total legend! He got presented the ejection handle from the Jag on a presentation pedestal. He was a Sqn Ldr when I knew him.

[DMN]

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

Crossflow Kid said:

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

ecsrobin said:

Crossflow Kid said:

The iconic LR Defender/Wolf is for the chop soon too.

That's because LR are discontinuing it. The MOD have already picked a replacement.

Ooh that's interesting, what's the replacement?

Combination of the current crop of Pinzgauer, Mastiff, Wolfhound, Ridgeback etc. plus the militarised version of the Merc G-Wagen (AFAIK), which is already in use by many NATO countries.
Defender is just too small and, in the grand scheme of things, weak nowadays and what with LR discontinuing the civvy spec I guess it makes sense. I have my doubts that the discontinuation of the model is the sole reason.
LR have in the past produced a number of MOD-only vehicles (most notably the 101 and Air Portable), and if Defender still fitted the bill production could continue for military orders only.

Ah right, that's very informative, thank you!

Interesting to also hear that the G-Wagen is still being used, that's credit to an originally good design platform isn't it?

Those Pinzgauer, Mastiff, Wolfhound, Ridgeback machines - who / where makes those? Are they UK companies?

The main replacement for the Defender/Wolf is the Foxhound:
http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2014/09/foxhound-lig...

British designed, developed and built.

[Chicken]

DMN said:

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

Crossflow Kid said:

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

ecsrobin said:

Crossflow Kid said:

The iconic LR Defender/Wolf is for the chop soon too.

That's because LR are discontinuing it. The MOD have already picked a replacement.

Ooh that's interesting, what's the replacement?

Combination of the current crop of Pinzgauer, Mastiff, Wolfhound, Ridgeback etc. plus the militarised version of the Merc G-Wagen (AFAIK), which is already in use by many NATO countries.
Defender is just too small and, in the grand scheme of things, weak nowadays and what with LR discontinuing the civvy spec I guess it makes sense. I have my doubts that the discontinuation of the model is the sole reason.
LR have in the past produced a number of MOD-only vehicles (most notably the 101 and Air Portable), and if Defender still fitted the bill production could continue for military orders only.

Ah right, that's very informative, thank you!

Interesting to also hear that the G-Wagen is still being used, that's credit to an originally good design platform isn't it?

Those Pinzgauer, Mastiff, Wolfhound, Ridgeback machines - who / where makes those? Are they UK companies?

The main replacement for the Defender/Wolf is the Foxhound:
http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2014/09/foxhound-lig...

British designed, developed and built.

Don't forget the Panther: http://www.army.mod.uk/equipment/23249.aspx
And I reckon the military will also end up purchasing the Defender replacement, as they will need to replace the thousands of unarmoured, canvas-topped, bog-standard 110's, 90's and Wolf's that are in use every day for NAAFI runs, skive-drives and nipping to stores.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Defenders 'soldiering' on for decades (I imagine there are probably still Bedford 4tonners sitting in TA Depots somewhere and they' were built prior to the invention of the wheel!)

[ecsrobin]

No knowledge of the G-wagon but certainly foxhound and Panther are intended as the replacement and if I remember according to defence focus the Panther contract had been signed.

Certainly within the RAF stock of land rovers including the wolfs were all taken away last year certainly within the last year to 2 years if I needed a LR I got a white hire landrover from a commercial company. But I think the powers that be realised for most day to day activities a road car would suffice.

Obviously specialist sections which require an off-road capability have kept their LR or have pinzgauer's

[steve j]

Badgerboy said:

The aforementioned Phantom pilot was one of my instructors, total legend! He got presented the ejection handle from the Jag on a presentation pedestal. He was a Sqn Ldr when I knew him.

I certainly remember the incident, I was on the load team Initially it was thought that the groundcrew were at fault, this was soon proved incorrect. I bumped into the F4 pilot at Brawdy as he was flying Hawks, he looked shocked to see me, I thought he should never be allowed to fly again, IMHO.