what has our military lost during austerity measures
Discussion
pablo said:
From my point of view, what we "have lost" is far less tangible than actual kit and hardware but is a result of the "contractorisation" of defence and the roles that were previously the realm of the forces/MoD, aircrfat depth maintenance for one, now completed by BAE, Babcock et al. People get too emotive about kit, closing down St Athan for example has cost the Country billions.
This has been quite an issue for many years. The skill fade is quite dramatic especially when it comes to something that needs a bit of hands on experience like sheet metal work. What seems to be the norm these days is that one military person gets known to be the one who can change a rivet without completely scrapping the aircraft, so they do all the temporary stuff until the aircraft comes in for depth and us civvies get to do it properly.
Some of the temporary repairs I've seen would make your hair curl...it's quite understandable if the aircraft has been on ops, but when it's a UK aircraft that comes in with rivets used like nail helped along with araldite rapid it's quite inexcusable.
Crossflow Kid said:
steve j said:
ecsrobin said:
I believe she was, but I'm guessing she's bitter as she probably got chopped from FJ training.
A taxi driver then, fully qualified in the carraige of armament 
Yertis said:
Crossflow Kid said:
steve j said:
ecsrobin said:
I believe she was, but I'm guessing she's bitter as she probably got chopped from FJ training.
A taxi driver then, fully qualified in the carraige of armament A shame really as whilst she can be quite "awkward" the technical answers she generally gives are very interesting to read.
ecain63 said:
Your experience?
Some here have been to Afghanistan and Iraq. There is little difference between the violence and destruction shown by a force of 50 fighting a force of 50 vs a force of 5000 fighting a force of 5000. It's really just 100 smaller firefights spread over a larger area. Each man is measured against a similar opposition.
By that logic, two men fighting one-on-one in my back garden is equivalent to the Korean War. Or Sangin was the equivalent of D-Day.Some here have been to Afghanistan and Iraq. There is little difference between the violence and destruction shown by a force of 50 fighting a force of 50 vs a force of 5000 fighting a force of 5000. It's really just 100 smaller firefights spread over a larger area. Each man is measured against a similar opposition.
The original quote relating operations in Afghanistan to the Korean War came when someone mentioned that 16 Air Assault Brigade in Helmand had fired ammunition at a rate not seen since the Korean War. That's a different thing to saying the campaigns are comparable in size and intensity. And the serving soldiers and Marines I have worked with every single day for the past 12 years acknowledge that while Afghanistan or Iraq was a potentially lethal challenge, it's not in the same ball park as facing down the massed ranks of the PLA under a divisional artillery bombardment.
ecsrobin said:
H100S said:
Please update
I'm not up to date with all things military. Looking back over the last few year what has been scrapped or about to be...
Aircraft
Harrier jets
Nimrod axed
VC10
Tri Star
Ships
Ark Royal
Just a reminderI'm not up to date with all things military. Looking back over the last few year what has been scrapped or about to be...
Aircraft
Harrier jets
Nimrod axed
VC10
Tri Star
Ships
Ark Royal
I think the difficulty with compiling the list is how to distinguish between assets that were cut on the grounds of austerity and those that were at the end of their useful life/already marked for disposal.
For example, someone mentioned that we had lost 3 type 23 frigates but as far as I can tell all of them are still in service. They may have been referring to the 3 that were sold to the Chilean Navy but that was a result of the 2003 Defence White Paper and unrelated to austerity
Planes like the VC10 and Tristar have been replaced with the Voyager - a requirement identified in 1997, selected in 2004 and ordered in 2008.
Edited by ralphrj on Tuesday 14th October 08:33
ralphrj said:
Thank you for bringing the thread back on topic.
I think the difficulty with compiling the list is how to distinguish between assets that were cut on the grounds of austerity and those that were at the end of their useful life/already marked for disposal.
For example, someone mentioned that we had lost 3 type 23 frigates but as far as I can tell all of them are still in service. They may have been referring to the 3 that were sold to the Chilean Navy but that was a result of the 2003 Defence White Paper and unrelated to austerity
Planes like the VC10 and Tristar have been replaced with the Voyager - a requirement identified in 1997, selected in 2004 and ordered in 2008.
+1I think the difficulty with compiling the list is how to distinguish between assets that were cut on the grounds of austerity and those that were at the end of their useful life/already marked for disposal.
For example, someone mentioned that we had lost 3 type 23 frigates but as far as I can tell all of them are still in service. They may have been referring to the 3 that were sold to the Chilean Navy but that was a result of the 2003 Defence White Paper and unrelated to austerity
Planes like the VC10 and Tristar have been replaced with the Voyager - a requirement identified in 1997, selected in 2004 and ordered in 2008.
Edited by ralphrj on Tuesday 14th October 08:33
You also have to distinguish between numbers, capability, and effect. Particularly in the joint environment.
Take the armed forces circa 1982 and the Falkland Islands. Certain capabilities we had then, we just don't have now (Carriers, Sea Harrier to name but a couple.) But then again we didn't have TLAM then either. So now, instead of sending a Vulcan 8000 miles in order to bomb, and miss, Port Stanley's runway, or come up with some insane plan to land the SAS on Tierra del Fuego in order to assault an Argentinian airbase, you'd just park a submarine between the mainland and the Islands and take both out simultaneously at distance. The Argentinian air force would have been paralysed from day 1. SF capability is also massively enhanced since then.
Same with air launched systems like Brimstone and Stormshadow, or the technological wizardry on a Type 45. Problem being, of course, that the increase in capability, firepower and lethality is compensated for by a reduction in numbers and increased 'preciousness' due to cost.
Horses for courses I suppose. Militaries are expensive things if you want to play the game properly.
Take the armed forces circa 1982 and the Falkland Islands. Certain capabilities we had then, we just don't have now (Carriers, Sea Harrier to name but a couple.) But then again we didn't have TLAM then either. So now, instead of sending a Vulcan 8000 miles in order to bomb, and miss, Port Stanley's runway, or come up with some insane plan to land the SAS on Tierra del Fuego in order to assault an Argentinian airbase, you'd just park a submarine between the mainland and the Islands and take both out simultaneously at distance. The Argentinian air force would have been paralysed from day 1. SF capability is also massively enhanced since then.
Same with air launched systems like Brimstone and Stormshadow, or the technological wizardry on a Type 45. Problem being, of course, that the increase in capability, firepower and lethality is compensated for by a reduction in numbers and increased 'preciousness' due to cost.
Horses for courses I suppose. Militaries are expensive things if you want to play the game properly.
Edited by Joey Ramone on Tuesday 14th October 15:33
ecsrobin said:
The thing is people are allowed their own opinions and also people have heard or seen a different version of events. Rather than agreeing to disagree G15 just fired off a load of abuse at steve.
A shame really as whilst she can be quite "awkward" the technical answers she generally gives are very interesting to read.
Tell me about it A shame really as whilst she can be quite "awkward" the technical answers she generally gives are very interesting to read.
It was not too good, but hey, it`s something you live with ralphrj said:
Planes like the VC10 and Tristar have been replaced with the Voyager - a requirement identified in 1997, selected in 2004 and ordered in 2008.
Surpassed only by MRA4 as the least cost effective defence procurement in the recent history of buying stuff. Even Voyager's manufacturer publicly commented the UK had had its pants pulled down.eccles said:
This has been quite an issue for many years. The skill fade is quite dramatic especially when it comes to something that needs a bit of hands on experience like sheet metal work.
What seems to be the norm these days is that one military person gets known to be the one who can change a rivet without completely scrapping the aircraft, so they do all the temporary stuff until the aircraft comes in for depth and us civvies get to do it properly.
Some of the temporary repairs I've seen would make your hair curl...it's quite understandable if the aircraft has been on ops, but when it's a UK aircraft that comes in with rivets used like nail helped along with araldite rapid it's quite inexcusable.
The skills lost here in St Athan is quite staggering, I managed to get work in Bristol, manufacturing Airbus components, so I`m one of the lucky few. It takes a lot of training to get a workforce to maintain a fleet of high tech` aircraft, so to just close it is a major loss. Bruce Dickinson and Cardiff Aviation have started servicing commercial jets, the planned 1,000 to 1,500 jobs hasn`t materialised. Austerity has hit hard in the military and civilian sector, has anyone got other examples of the doom and gloom caused by it ?What seems to be the norm these days is that one military person gets known to be the one who can change a rivet without completely scrapping the aircraft, so they do all the temporary stuff until the aircraft comes in for depth and us civvies get to do it properly.
Some of the temporary repairs I've seen would make your hair curl...it's quite understandable if the aircraft has been on ops, but when it's a UK aircraft that comes in with rivets used like nail helped along with araldite rapid it's quite inexcusable.
steve j said:
eccles said:
This has been quite an issue for many years. The skill fade is quite dramatic especially when it comes to something that needs a bit of hands on experience like sheet metal work.
What seems to be the norm these days is that one military person gets known to be the one who can change a rivet without completely scrapping the aircraft, so they do all the temporary stuff until the aircraft comes in for depth and us civvies get to do it properly.
Some of the temporary repairs I've seen would make your hair curl...it's quite understandable if the aircraft has been on ops, but when it's a UK aircraft that comes in with rivets used like nail helped along with araldite rapid it's quite inexcusable.
The skills lost here in St Athan is quite staggering, I managed to get work in Bristol, manufacturing Airbus components, so I`m one of the lucky few. It takes a lot of training to get a workforce to maintain a fleet of high tech` aircraft, so to just close it is a major loss. Bruce Dickinson and Cardiff Aviation have started servicing commercial jets, the planned 1,000 to 1,500 jobs hasn`t materialised. Austerity has hit hard in the military and civilian sector, has anyone got other examples of the doom and gloom caused by it ?What seems to be the norm these days is that one military person gets known to be the one who can change a rivet without completely scrapping the aircraft, so they do all the temporary stuff until the aircraft comes in for depth and us civvies get to do it properly.
Some of the temporary repairs I've seen would make your hair curl...it's quite understandable if the aircraft has been on ops, but when it's a UK aircraft that comes in with rivets used like nail helped along with araldite rapid it's quite inexcusable.
Elroy Blue said:
The Navy has lost all its Type 22 Frigates. Batch 3s were superb command and control ships.
All its Type 42s.
Three type 23s
The two remaining Invincible class carriers.
Don't forget the monumental farce that is Type 45: 18 originally ordered, MOD cut back to 12 but BAe said they wanted the full payment for the whole batch.All its Type 42s.
Three type 23s
The two remaining Invincible class carriers.
Finally stopped building after 6 completed: BAe still demanding full payment for all 18...
...and the 6 are forever in drydock having bits fixed
Wedg1e said:
eccles said:
I work with a couple of ex Saints apprentices and was there on an NDT course last year, it really is a shadow of it's former self.
You may have used some of the kit that I look after there then. Yxlon SMART ring any bells?
I was there for a dye pen course. I've been doing it for years and now we have to have a course etc to carry on doing it.
doogz said:
Wedg1e said:
Don't forget the monumental farce that is Type 45: 18 originally ordered, MOD cut back to 12 but BAe said they wanted the full payment for the whole batch.
Finally stopped building after 6 completed: BAe still demanding full payment for all 18...
...and the 6 are forever in drydock having bits fixed
Where did you hear that little story? Finally stopped building after 6 completed: BAe still demanding full payment for all 18...
...and the 6 are forever in drydock having bits fixed
This is a long and dull read if anyone is particualrly interested in the T45 saga
http://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/0...
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 17th October 12:57
pablo said:
Yes it made me chuckle too, makes me wonder why there is so much of an issue with defence procurement given there are so many experts on the internet.... there were only ever 12 T45s planned but there are/were 18 T26 GCS planned so possibly there is some confusion?.
That might explain it but the confusion lies with the guy who told me it was 18 T45s, I've never even heard of a T26.If someone who works for a supplier tells me something 'inside' I tend to believe him and not the internet.
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