Officer aircrew
Discussion
PaulG40 said:
My view is simply that an Officer is needed purely on the need for accountability in a tactical situation to deliver mass ordnance. I know on the ground, a soldier can kill the enemy too but in a mistake or incident, it's his officer in charge who take overall responsibility and command accountability.
Just because he/she is the CO doesn't mean he/she has to be the one at the controls.Bomber crews in WW2 seemed to manage without their boss on the aircraft every trip.
My overall view on this is equally simple. The Office/NCO aircrew structure is long due a ground-up overhaul, but all the time those who could instigate any changes are themselves a product of the existing system it ain't gonna happen.
A quick look at post-Cold War draw down of officer ranks v NC ranks tells pretty much the same story.
Anyway, I'm off down the NAAFI to meet the wife for the weekly shop before happy hour at the Familes Club. Narrow-minded, me?
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 3rd November 06:41
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 3rd November 11:51
It wasn't the case when I joined 11 years ago but has the situation changed now insomuch as there are insufficient suitable officer/aircrew candidates applying?
If OACTU can still have their pick of Officer quality aircrew applicants and there aren't excessive numbers of student aircrew being chopped from their branch training I don't see the problem. If the officers kepts stacking the aeroplanes or otherwise demonstrating lack of aptitude for aircrew roles then maybe. I think it's unlikely we will find ourselves back in Battle of Britain dire straits where attrition rates mean we can't back-fill quick enough with officers and therefore need to bring NCOs back in.
If OACTU can still have their pick of Officer quality aircrew applicants and there aren't excessive numbers of student aircrew being chopped from their branch training I don't see the problem. If the officers kepts stacking the aeroplanes or otherwise demonstrating lack of aptitude for aircrew roles then maybe. I think it's unlikely we will find ourselves back in Battle of Britain dire straits where attrition rates mean we can't back-fill quick enough with officers and therefore need to bring NCOs back in.
Yawn...
Officers are selected on the basis of more than just the ability to carry out a function - Christ, I spent the first 6 months of my career holding a Stuart Distance Meter smoking tabs on the bridge wing - a chimp could have done that - it doesn't mean the 'system' is screwed and that the Able Seaman who could do the job just as well should be commissioned or given some kind of parity.
Granted, the role of aircrew is a little more binary, but once flying days are over and the FJ pilot is driving a desk in Whitehall working on policy or plans, or is the Defence Attache in Moscow or Commander British Forces Cyprus, then 'officer like qualities' become more important than simple flying aptitude.
Not only this, but the officer bar is hardly set high....get a brace of A Levels, read the Telegraph for a few weeks and do a few PLTs with the Cubs and you're half way there. With the exception of a few of the w
ky Army regiments, the elitism alluded to on here is about a decade out of date..
Officers are selected on the basis of more than just the ability to carry out a function - Christ, I spent the first 6 months of my career holding a Stuart Distance Meter smoking tabs on the bridge wing - a chimp could have done that - it doesn't mean the 'system' is screwed and that the Able Seaman who could do the job just as well should be commissioned or given some kind of parity.
Granted, the role of aircrew is a little more binary, but once flying days are over and the FJ pilot is driving a desk in Whitehall working on policy or plans, or is the Defence Attache in Moscow or Commander British Forces Cyprus, then 'officer like qualities' become more important than simple flying aptitude.
Not only this, but the officer bar is hardly set high....get a brace of A Levels, read the Telegraph for a few weeks and do a few PLTs with the Cubs and you're half way there. With the exception of a few of the w
ky Army regiments, the elitism alluded to on here is about a decade out of date..donutsina911 said:
Crossflow Kid said:
...hence time for a revamp.
You're making that other old skool mistake of thinking because someone's a good pilot they'll make a good CEO.
Far from it. I'm saying quite the opposite - being a good pilot is just part of being a good officer.You're making that other old skool mistake of thinking because someone's a good pilot they'll make a good CEO.
Crossflow Kid said:
donutsina911 said:
Crossflow Kid said:
...hence time for a revamp.
You're making that other old skool mistake of thinking because someone's a good pilot they'll make a good CEO.
Far from it. I'm saying quite the opposite - being a good pilot is just part of being a good officer.You're making that other old skool mistake of thinking because someone's a good pilot they'll make a good CEO.
Try thinking from a different perspective.
You almost certainly don't need to be an Officer to fly a FJ or a Helo. You're part of a bigger support network, you have specific orders on your missions and you inevitably land at the place from where you took off. It's nothing to do with firing weapons - your private soldier can quite happily deal death.
As an Officer and Captain of a intercontinental ME aircraft I'm in charge of upwards of 100 people or 20 tonnes of god knows what cargo, all the weapons, ammunition, cryptographic materiel, secret materiel, $XX,000 in cash and then sent off round the world. You need to have the authority and crucially the accountability to be in charge of all that stuff when you're out of comms and completely unsupported in some godforsaken sthole on the other side of the planet, where someone on the pax/ crew will inevitably get drunk or arrested, you need to bribe your way through checkpoint or something equally dodgy.
There's no reason why an SNCO "couldn't" do all those things, but it's unfair to expect them to do that as it's not in their job description. Back in the day, you used to have to be a Senior Officer to be the Captain of a VC10 because of the number of people it carried. That is no longer the case, but there's a reason why Airline captains are paid the big bucks and that's because when it all goes wrong it goes very wrong and at the end of the day the buck stops with you. If you plough your Apache into the side of a hill then you only kill yourself, your weapons guy and waste a bunch of taxpayer money. If you stoof an A330 with 300 people on board into the ground then that's somewhat different...
You almost certainly don't need to be an Officer to fly a FJ or a Helo. You're part of a bigger support network, you have specific orders on your missions and you inevitably land at the place from where you took off. It's nothing to do with firing weapons - your private soldier can quite happily deal death.
As an Officer and Captain of a intercontinental ME aircraft I'm in charge of upwards of 100 people or 20 tonnes of god knows what cargo, all the weapons, ammunition, cryptographic materiel, secret materiel, $XX,000 in cash and then sent off round the world. You need to have the authority and crucially the accountability to be in charge of all that stuff when you're out of comms and completely unsupported in some godforsaken s
thole on the other side of the planet, where someone on the pax/ crew will inevitably get drunk or arrested, you need to bribe your way through checkpoint or something equally dodgy. There's no reason why an SNCO "couldn't" do all those things, but it's unfair to expect them to do that as it's not in their job description. Back in the day, you used to have to be a Senior Officer to be the Captain of a VC10 because of the number of people it carried. That is no longer the case, but there's a reason why Airline captains are paid the big bucks and that's because when it all goes wrong it goes very wrong and at the end of the day the buck stops with you. If you plough your Apache into the side of a hill then you only kill yourself, your weapons guy and waste a bunch of taxpayer money. If you stoof an A330 with 300 people on board into the ground then that's somewhat different...
donutsina911 said:
Crossflow Kid said:
donutsina911 said:
Crossflow Kid said:
...hence time for a revamp.
You're making that other old skool mistake of thinking because someone's a good pilot they'll make a good CEO.
Far from it. I'm saying quite the opposite - being a good pilot is just part of being a good officer.You're making that other old skool mistake of thinking because someone's a good pilot they'll make a good CEO.
Coming at it from the other side of the debate, non-pilot officers can and have commanded flying squadrons.
A good pilot isn't always a good officer.
A good officer isn't always a good pilot.
BUT, a good officer will be a good manager and vice versa.
It's not difficult.
Crossflow Kid said:
I'm not suggesting there is no requirement for an officer corp, and agree that any organisation needs an executive level, but why does that equate to all pilots being commissioned?
Coming at it from the other side of the debate, non-pilot officers can and have commanded flying squadrons.
A good pilot isn't always a good officer.
A good officer isn't always a good pilot.
BUT, a good officer will be a good manager and vice versa.
It's not difficult.
Coming at it from the other side of the debate, non-pilot officers can and have commanded flying squadrons.
A good pilot isn't always a good officer.
A good officer isn't always a good pilot.
BUT, a good officer will be a good manager and vice versa.
It's not difficult.
See my post above, but yes, you're right, it's not difficult.
The RAF is about air power and as such, you'd expect the leadership of the organisation to have first hand knowledge of air power. 90% of the current Air Force Board are pilots, 1 Grp is led by a FJ pilot, 2 Grp is led by a pilot, 22 Grp is led by a pilot and I'd hazard a guess that 90% of squadrons have aviators as COs for this very reason.
If there is an expectation that the RAF will be led by aviators, then aviators must meet a minimum set of academic achievement and leadership aptitude in order to be accepted into the organisation as potential future leaders of it.
rkem said:
Try thinking from a different perspective.
You almost certainly don't need to be an Officer to fly a FJ or a Helo. You're part of a bigger support network, you have specific orders on your missions and you inevitably land at the place from where you took off. It's nothing to do with firing weapons - your private soldier can quite happily deal death.
As an Officer and Captain of a intercontinental ME aircraft I'm in charge of upwards of 100 people or 20 tonnes of god knows what cargo, all the weapons, ammunition, cryptographic materiel, secret materiel, $XX,000 in cash and then sent off round the world. You need to have the authority and crucially the accountability to be in charge of all that stuff when you're out of comms and completely unsupported in some godforsaken sthole on the other side of the planet, where someone on the pax/ crew will inevitably get drunk or arrested, you need to bribe your way through checkpoint or something equally dodgy.
There's no reason why an SNCO "couldn't" do all those things, but it's unfair to expect them to do that as it's not in their job description. Back in the day, you used to have to be a Senior Officer to be the Captain of a VC10 because of the number of people it carried. That is no longer the case, but there's a reason why Airline captains are paid the big bucks and that's because when it all goes wrong it goes very wrong and at the end of the day the buck stops with you. If you plough your Apache into the side of a hill then you only kill yourself, your weapons guy and waste a bunch of taxpayer money. If you stoof an A330 with 300 people on board into the ground then that's somewhat different...
Oh dear.......You almost certainly don't need to be an Officer to fly a FJ or a Helo. You're part of a bigger support network, you have specific orders on your missions and you inevitably land at the place from where you took off. It's nothing to do with firing weapons - your private soldier can quite happily deal death.
As an Officer and Captain of a intercontinental ME aircraft I'm in charge of upwards of 100 people or 20 tonnes of god knows what cargo, all the weapons, ammunition, cryptographic materiel, secret materiel, $XX,000 in cash and then sent off round the world. You need to have the authority and crucially the accountability to be in charge of all that stuff when you're out of comms and completely unsupported in some godforsaken s
thole on the other side of the planet, where someone on the pax/ crew will inevitably get drunk or arrested, you need to bribe your way through checkpoint or something equally dodgy. There's no reason why an SNCO "couldn't" do all those things, but it's unfair to expect them to do that as it's not in their job description. Back in the day, you used to have to be a Senior Officer to be the Captain of a VC10 because of the number of people it carried. That is no longer the case, but there's a reason why Airline captains are paid the big bucks and that's because when it all goes wrong it goes very wrong and at the end of the day the buck stops with you. If you plough your Apache into the side of a hill then you only kill yourself, your weapons guy and waste a bunch of taxpayer money. If you stoof an A330 with 300 people on board into the ground then that's somewhat different...
Either a troll or a really, really, really keen wee baby captain at Brize....I'm guessing you've done pretty much nothing else apart from fly shiny aircraft SID-Airway-STAR-ILS? Dropped any cameras lately?
As it stands I think SNCO pilots are a good idea, although I like the US system of direct entry CWOs myself. Have a career stream of clever clogs officer aircrew that you can promote out of the cockpit to run PTs, Squadrons and Stations etc and have core aircrew mainly non-commissioned. Fly, have fun, do something more interesting with your life than answer 60 emails a day......
Siko said:
Oh dear.......
Either a troll or a really, really, really keen wee baby captain at Brize....I'm guessing you've done pretty much nothing else apart from fly shiny aircraft SID-Airway-STAR-ILS? Dropped any cameras lately?
As it stands I think SNCO pilots are a good idea, although I like the US system of direct entry CWOs myself. Have a career stream of clever clogs officer aircrew that you can promote out of the cockpit to run PTs, Squadrons and Stations etc and have core aircrew mainly non-commissioned. Fly, have fun, do something more interesting with your life than answer 60 emails a day......
Half-joking to make the point, but I'm certainly not shiny. The point about being responsible for people stands for the Shiny lot but the rest of it doesn't really apply so guess again. Either a troll or a really, really, really keen wee baby captain at Brize....I'm guessing you've done pretty much nothing else apart from fly shiny aircraft SID-Airway-STAR-ILS? Dropped any cameras lately?
As it stands I think SNCO pilots are a good idea, although I like the US system of direct entry CWOs myself. Have a career stream of clever clogs officer aircrew that you can promote out of the cockpit to run PTs, Squadrons and Stations etc and have core aircrew mainly non-commissioned. Fly, have fun, do something more interesting with your life than answer 60 emails a day......
I'm guessing you've probably only got Jubilee medal(s) on your chest whilst you're playing hand-wars in the bar?
Done anything remotely war-y lately apart from pretend to be 'Operational' down in MPA? See we can all generalise about things we're completely wrong about.
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