ME109 "Barn Find"
Discussion
Hey all,
Found this interesting little blog about some ME109's that were uncovered after being in storage for 40 odd years. Apparently they last flew during the filming of Battle of Britain.
Link is here;
http://boschungglobal.com/messerschmitt.php
If you look down the bottom there is a link to a gallery and also a video of them firing an incredibly dusty looking one up. It would be really nice to see at least a couple restored to flying condition!
Cheers,
Ant
Found this interesting little blog about some ME109's that were uncovered after being in storage for 40 odd years. Apparently they last flew during the filming of Battle of Britain.
Link is here;
http://boschungglobal.com/messerschmitt.php
If you look down the bottom there is a link to a gallery and also a video of them firing an incredibly dusty looking one up. It would be really nice to see at least a couple restored to flying condition!
Cheers,
Ant
Lack of alternative at the time they were built.
Before the end of World War 2, Hispano acquired a licence to build Messerschmitt 109Gs. Because of Germany's precarious position - and ultimate collapse at the end of the war, none of the expected Daimler Benz engines could be delivered to Spain.
Initially, Hispano fitted their own V12 engine, which was less than satisfactory. In the early 1950s, the UK embargo on exports to Spain was lifted and immediately Hispano placed an order with Rolls Royce for Merlins.
The version that Spain used right up to 1966 was the Hispano HA1112 Buchon - which was in production up until 1956/57 and were all fitted from new with Merlins.
Before the end of World War 2, Hispano acquired a licence to build Messerschmitt 109Gs. Because of Germany's precarious position - and ultimate collapse at the end of the war, none of the expected Daimler Benz engines could be delivered to Spain.
Initially, Hispano fitted their own V12 engine, which was less than satisfactory. In the early 1950s, the UK embargo on exports to Spain was lifted and immediately Hispano placed an order with Rolls Royce for Merlins.
The version that Spain used right up to 1966 was the Hispano HA1112 Buchon - which was in production up until 1956/57 and were all fitted from new with Merlins.
Eric Mc said:
And they are not a "barn find".
Yeah I know mate, hence the inverted commas in the title and the fact that I already said in my OP they had been in STORAGE for 40+ years 
Yertis said:
Out of interest does anyone know why they were fitted with Merlins instead of whatever it was they originally had?
I assume if they were used for filming the Battle of Britain, that surplus Merlin's were maybe more easily obtainable rather than whatever powerplant they were originally fitted with.Edit: As Eric commented above, didn't realise that they got fitted in service with Merlins, then again I didn't realise that they were actually a Hispano!
Cheers, Ant.
Edited by Spantney on Tuesday 18th November 12:28
The story of how they were "recruited" to play the role of 109Es in the film is a bit of an epic in itself. Well worth checking out.
Connie Edwards was a key player in the story.
Although the aircraft had been kept in a hangar all these years, they were not hidden or lost in any way. Indeed, over the lifetime of the collection, a number of these aircraft were sold off and restored to full airworthiness. Two of them are actually flying in the UK at the moment, one in the colour scheme it wore in the film.
The Czech model company, Special Hobby has recently released a 1/72 kit of the Hispano Buchon and one version of the kit contains the markings of some of the movie aircraft -
Connie Edwards was a key player in the story.
Although the aircraft had been kept in a hangar all these years, they were not hidden or lost in any way. Indeed, over the lifetime of the collection, a number of these aircraft were sold off and restored to full airworthiness. Two of them are actually flying in the UK at the moment, one in the colour scheme it wore in the film.
The Czech model company, Special Hobby has recently released a 1/72 kit of the Hispano Buchon and one version of the kit contains the markings of some of the movie aircraft -
Eric Mc said:
Lack of alternative at the time they were built.
Before the end of World War 2, Hispano acquired a licence to build Messerschmitt 109Gs. Because of Germany's precarious position - and ultimate collapse at the end of the war, none of the expected Daimler Benz engines could be delivered to Spain.
That's the bit I didn't know. It's always struck as a bit odd that we didn't make more immediate use of what the germans had to offer at the end of the war. I know we recruited scientists and took research material, and the rockets, but I'd have thought that some entire programmes, like the Me262 and Ar234 could have been usefully resurrected. I can guess the reasons why not though and suppose the immediate legacy of the 262 is aircraft like the Sabre and MiG 15. Before the end of World War 2, Hispano acquired a licence to build Messerschmitt 109Gs. Because of Germany's precarious position - and ultimate collapse at the end of the war, none of the expected Daimler Benz engines could be delivered to Spain.
Yertis said:
Eric Mc said:
Lack of alternative at the time they were built.
Before the end of World War 2, Hispano acquired a licence to build Messerschmitt 109Gs. Because of Germany's precarious position - and ultimate collapse at the end of the war, none of the expected Daimler Benz engines could be delivered to Spain.
That's the bit I didn't know. It's always struck as a bit odd that we didn't make more immediate use of what the Germans had to offer at the end of the war. I know we recruited scientists and took research material, and the rockets, but I'd have thought that some entire programmes, like the Me262 and Ar234 could have been usefully resurrected. I can guess the reasons why not though and suppose the immediate legacy of the 262 is aircraft like the Sabre and MiG 15. Before the end of World War 2, Hispano acquired a licence to build Messerschmitt 109Gs. Because of Germany's precarious position - and ultimate collapse at the end of the war, none of the expected Daimler Benz engines could be delivered to Spain.
They had their own derivative of the 109, the Avia 99 and 199. They also ran out of Daimler Benz engines (this time due to the storage facility where the engines were kept being destroyed in a fire - probably sabotage). They substituted Junkers Jumo engines into their 99 and 199 - with mixed results. By all accounts the 'plane was a bit of a pig. The Israelis used a version in the late 1940s which they called the "Mezek" which means "Mule".
There was also a Czech version of the Siebel Si204, the Aero C-3, which was a twin engined communications aircraft.
And the Czechs also built some 262s - as the Avia S92.
The Czech's experience with the 262 was not a very good one. The 262 had many shortcomings - both in handling and reliability - and the Czechs dropped the project pretty quickly, especially as soon as the more robust but simpler early Russian jet designs became available to them.
Yertis said:
...suppose the immediate legacy of the 262 is aircraft like the Sabre and MiG 15.
The more direct Soviet legacy of the 262 took the form of the very earliest Russian jets, the Yak-15, Yak-17 and the MiG-9, which were powered by copies of Junkers Jumo and BMW jet engines, respectively.The MiG-15 was actually powered by a copies of Rolls Royce jet engines, which (for reasons I've never been able to comprehend, apart from the fact that we were broke and needed the cash) we sold to the Russians. Similarly, the Sabre's engine was developed from British technology and co-operation, so both are more rooted in Whittle/UK jet technology than German.
Although more advanced than Britain's centrifugal flow jet engines, the German axial flow engines were notoriously unreliable - especially since the Germans were forced to use inferior metals in their construction due to war shortages. I presume the Soviets addressed some of these shortcomings but I reckon those earlier axial flow engines would have still been pretty dodgy.
Eric Brown tells the tale of when he was pushing the throttles forward for take off in a 262 at Farnborough. The aircraft was just beginning to pick up some speed when one of the engines exploded. He was extremely lucky it had not let go 10 seconds later.
Eric Brown tells the tale of when he was pushing the throttles forward for take off in a 262 at Farnborough. The aircraft was just beginning to pick up some speed when one of the engines exploded. He was extremely lucky it had not let go 10 seconds later.
Eric Mc said:
Although more advanced than Britain's centrifugal flow jet engines, the German axial flow engines were notoriously unreliable - especially since the Germans were forced to use inferior metals in their construction due to war shortages.
I think it's easy to fall for the myth of German technological invincibility, and make up excuses for their failures.The simple truth is that British knowledge of metallurgy was better than the Germans', and British designs were a more realistic, pragmatic and appropriate response to the limitations of materials and manufacturing processes then available. Which is why our jet engines worked (relatively) reliably and theirs didn't.
It's not that we didn't understand or know about axial flow technology - we'd run an axial jet engine in 1941 and the J35 (axial flow) was developed in parallel with the J33 (centrifugal flow), both based on British technology and metallurgy, both with their early development during the war years, as a bet-hedging exercise - but we recognised and understood (where the Germans, apparently did not) that axial flow was a a little beyond the limits of the materials and manufacturing technologies available to support it in the early days. That first British axial jet engine, the Metrovic F.1 - which was initially dismissed for production because of its poor reliability - eventually developed and re-emerged as the Beryl and Sapphire turbojets, when the know-how had been developed to support it.
In short, the Germans were trying to be a bit too clever for their own good.
Edited by MintSprint on Tuesday 18th November 15:32
MintSprint said:
I think it's easy to fall for the myth of German technological invincibility, and make up excuses for their failures.
The simple truth is that British knowledge of metallurgy was better than the Germans', and British designs were a more realistic, pragmatic and appropriate response to the limitations of materials and manufacturing processes then available. Which is why our jet engines worked (relatively) reliably and theirs didn't.
It's not that we didn't understand or know about axial flow technology - we'd run an axial jet engine in 1941 and the J35 (axial flow) was developed in parallel with the J33 (centrifugal flow), both based on British technology and metallurgy, both with their early development during the war years, as a bet-hedging exercise - but we recognised and understood (where the Germans, apparently did not) that axial flow was a a little beyond the limits of the materials and manufacturing technologies available to support it in the early days. That first British axial jet engine, the Metrovic F.1 - which was initially dismissed for production because of its poor reliability - eventually developed and re-emerged as the Beryl and Sapphire turbojets, when the know-how had been developed to support it.
In short, the Germans were trying to be a bit too clever for their own good.
And the first German jet was also centrifugal flow but Ernst Heinkel always had trouble getting the Nazis to approve any of his designs as he wasn't as "pro-Nazi" as some of the other manufacturers.The simple truth is that British knowledge of metallurgy was better than the Germans', and British designs were a more realistic, pragmatic and appropriate response to the limitations of materials and manufacturing processes then available. Which is why our jet engines worked (relatively) reliably and theirs didn't.
It's not that we didn't understand or know about axial flow technology - we'd run an axial jet engine in 1941 and the J35 (axial flow) was developed in parallel with the J33 (centrifugal flow), both based on British technology and metallurgy, both with their early development during the war years, as a bet-hedging exercise - but we recognised and understood (where the Germans, apparently did not) that axial flow was a a little beyond the limits of the materials and manufacturing technologies available to support it in the early days. That first British axial jet engine, the Metrovic F.1 - which was initially dismissed for production because of its poor reliability - eventually developed and re-emerged as the Beryl and Sapphire turbojets, when the know-how had been developed to support it.
In short, the Germans were trying to be a bit too clever for their own good.
Edited by MintSprint on Tuesday 18th November 15:32
We have a tendency to give the Germans far too much credit for their technology during the war and a tendency to give too little to the British and the Americans.
Eric Mc said:
We have a tendency to give the Germans far too much credit for their technology during the war and a tendency to give too little to the British and the Americans.
Rather frustrating that the semi-informed party line that's usually trotted out is 'Oh, the British didn't really invent the jet engine, because the Whittle centrifugal turbojet was just a blind alley. Of course, it was the Germans who invented the axial flow turbine that is used in all modern jet engines'.
Actually, it was an Englishman (Alan Griffith) who produced the theoretical work that demonstrated the viability of the axial gas turbine in the first place. And we were well up there with the Germans in terms of its early development too - we just weren't foolish enough to put it into premature production, before the problems had been solved.
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