ME109 "Barn Find"
Discussion
Eric Mc said:
Apparently, a very 1960s electric doorbell shows up in one scene too - although I've never noticed it. If I had I would have stormed out of the cinema - a very indignant 10 year old.
I noticed that doorbell when I was quite young. 
I think that it's at Robert Shaw's house, when Ian McShane has just spent the night. We had the same model doorbell here until recently, I imagine it's a bit of a classic doorbell among enthusiasts for such things.
The one that annoys me is Memphis Belle escorted by P51s.
A big point of Memphis Belle's achievement in completing 25 missions was that it was done without fighter escort all the way to the targets, no P51s being available. The main point of the P51 was that it had the range to accompany the bombers all the way to Berlin if necessary.
If it was logistics I could acccept, it like Buchons standing in for 109s, but there were plenty of Spitfires and at least one P47 available to the film makers so it could have been done realistically.
Talking of Mosquito squadron, I do draw the line at BF108s playing BF109s.
Mind you in the book of 633 squadron, a Me110 has a bomb aimer in the nose, so it isn't just film makers who get it wrong.
A big point of Memphis Belle's achievement in completing 25 missions was that it was done without fighter escort all the way to the targets, no P51s being available. The main point of the P51 was that it had the range to accompany the bombers all the way to Berlin if necessary.
If it was logistics I could acccept, it like Buchons standing in for 109s, but there were plenty of Spitfires and at least one P47 available to the film makers so it could have been done realistically.
Talking of Mosquito squadron, I do draw the line at BF108s playing BF109s.
Mind you in the book of 633 squadron, a Me110 has a bomb aimer in the nose, so it isn't just film makers who get it wrong.
Dr Jekyll said:
Talking of Mosquito squadron, I do draw the line at BF108s playing BF109s.
Of course, hardly any of the "108s" that were standing in for "109s" were actually, "108s". Most of them were actually Nord 1002 Pingouins, which was a post war French built derivative of the 108 (a bit like the Avia 99/Buchon situtation with the 109).Indeed, often the 108 that was used was Lindsay Walton's G-ATBG - which turned up in quite a few films.
Dr Jekyll said:
The one that annoys me is Memphis Belle escorted by P51s.
A big point of Memphis Belle's achievement in completing 25 missions was that it was done without fighter escort all the way to the targets, no P51s being available. The main point of the P51 was that it had the range to accompany the bombers all the way to Berlin if necessary.
If it was logistics I could acccept, it like Buchons standing in for 109s, but there were plenty of Spitfires and at least one P47 available to the film makers so it could have been done realistically.
Talking of Mosquito squadron, I do draw the line at BF108s playing BF109s.
Mind you in the book of 633 squadron, a Me110 has a bomb aimer in the nose, so it isn't just film makers who get it wrong.
Yes, the P-51 escort didn't start until some months after Memphis Belle had completed her 25 missions. By the way, in the 1990 film you can clearly see modern day 'tramlines' in the crop fields around the airfield, I stormed out the cinema in disgust.A big point of Memphis Belle's achievement in completing 25 missions was that it was done without fighter escort all the way to the targets, no P51s being available. The main point of the P51 was that it had the range to accompany the bombers all the way to Berlin if necessary.
If it was logistics I could acccept, it like Buchons standing in for 109s, but there were plenty of Spitfires and at least one P47 available to the film makers so it could have been done realistically.
Talking of Mosquito squadron, I do draw the line at BF108s playing BF109s.
Mind you in the book of 633 squadron, a Me110 has a bomb aimer in the nose, so it isn't just film makers who get it wrong.
The 'Bf108 as Bf109' was a popular measure - it's used in The Longest Day as well, even though the actual aircraft used on the day were Fw190s.
fatboy69 said:
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
XJ Flyer said:
Which leaves the question was the Merlin engine fit in those aircraft a deal breaker from the point of view of realism in the eyes of the audience.Certainly in my case.
In 1969 there were damn all DB601 powered Bf109s available. There are f
k all available now. But for you it is a 'deal breaker'?So you don't think the 1969 film should have been made?
You really are a pillock aren't you?
Did this ruin the films either when they were made or now?
As with the Battle Of Britain the answer, simply, is no.
The films were made with what was available at the time - which wasn't a lot.
Certainly were not a 'deal breaker' in my view. What a daft thing to say.
had my 9y/o self jumping up and down indignantly! lol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Bulge_%...
irocfan said:
I hate sticking up for our resident loon but I do have an inkling where he is coming from - for me it wasn't the BoB rather the Battle of the Bulge seen as a kid. Seeing this as a King Tiger
had my 9y/o self jumping up and down indignantly! lol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Bulge_%...
Almost as bad is a Sherman with its turret blown neatly in half and the crew still in it.had my 9y/o self jumping up and down indignantly! lol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Bulge_%...
fatboy69 said:
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
XJ Flyer said:
Which leaves the question was the Merlin engine fit in those aircraft a deal breaker from the point of view of realism in the eyes of the audience.Certainly in my case.
In 1969 there were damn all DB601 powered Bf109s available. There are fk all available now. But for you it is a 'deal breaker'?So you don't think the 1969 film should have been made?
You really are a pillock aren't you?
Did this ruin the films either when they were made or now?
As with the Battle Of Britain the answer, simply, is no.
The films were made with what was available at the time - which wasn't a lot.
Certainly were not a 'deal breaker' in my view. What a daft thing to say.
www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/classiccars/10922672/...
Although to be fair in that case the period and circumstances obviously allowed a much easier situation in that regard,than trying to portray a real enough DB engined 109 would have done.However on that note I'm standing by the idea that a DB engined Buchon probably would have been more easily doable in the late 1960's than the 21st century and would have added something special to the film,not to mention value of the aircraft, if the effort had been made.
It couldn't be done at the time. There were no airworthy DB powered 109s available at all and as far as I know, no functioning DB601s or DB605s that could have been used. It was another quarter century at least before a DB powered 109 flew again.
It wasn't an "easier" solution - it was the ONLY solution.
And, to be accurate, any genuine 109 of the real Battle of Britain period was of the E version, which outwardly was quite different looking to the G versions. Putting a DB601/605 on a Buchon would not have produced an accurate looking Battle of Britain 109 in any case.
It wasn't an "easier" solution - it was the ONLY solution.
And, to be accurate, any genuine 109 of the real Battle of Britain period was of the E version, which outwardly was quite different looking to the G versions. Putting a DB601/605 on a Buchon would not have produced an accurate looking Battle of Britain 109 in any case.
Yertis said:
Eric Mc said:
Lack of alternative at the time they were built.
Before the end of World War 2, Hispano acquired a licence to build Messerschmitt 109Gs. Because of Germany's precarious position - and ultimate collapse at the end of the war, none of the expected Daimler Benz engines could be delivered to Spain.
That's the bit I didn't know. It's always struck as a bit odd that we didn't make more immediate use of what the germans had to offer at the end of the war. I know we recruited scientists and took research material, and the rockets, but I'd have thought that some entire programmes, like the Me262 and Ar234 could have been usefully resurrected. I can guess the reasons why not though and suppose the immediate legacy of the 262 is aircraft like the Sabre and MiG 15. Before the end of World War 2, Hispano acquired a licence to build Messerschmitt 109Gs. Because of Germany's precarious position - and ultimate collapse at the end of the war, none of the expected Daimler Benz engines could be delivered to Spain.
I wonder if it would be possible to 'remaster' BoB using CGI to correct and enhance the aerial scenes? I'm sure it would. Then we'd all be happy, provided it was done intelligently of course, preferably with Eric as technical advisor.
Susannah York's bits can be left alone of course.
Susannah York's bits can be left alone of course.
Eric Mc said:
It couldn't be done at the time. There were no airworthy DB powered 109s available at all and as far as I know, no functioning DB601s or DB605s that could have been used. It was another quarter century at least before a DB powered 109 flew again.
It wasn't an "easier" solution - it was the ONLY solution.
And, to be accurate, any genuine 109 of the real Battle of Britain period was of the E version, which outwardly was quite different looking to the G versions. Putting a DB601/605 on a Buchon would not have produced an accurate looking Battle of Britain 109 in any case.
And to look accurate they would still have needed Jumo engined HE111s, plus ME110s, DO17s, JU88s and a load more Hurricanes.It wasn't an "easier" solution - it was the ONLY solution.
And, to be accurate, any genuine 109 of the real Battle of Britain period was of the E version, which outwardly was quite different looking to the G versions. Putting a DB601/605 on a Buchon would not have produced an accurate looking Battle of Britain 109 in any case.
Eric Mc said:
Yertis said:
Eric Mc said:
Which were not very 1940 either - as pointed out by my mum, who was a 16 year old teenager in 1940.
I don't think that information will spoil my enjoyment of the film, certainly less so than incorrectly engined aircraft.Yertis said:
I wonder if it would be possible to 'remaster' BoB using CGI to correct and enhance the aerial scenes? I'm sure it would. Then we'd all be happy, provided it was done intelligently of course, preferably with Eric as technical advisor.
Susannah York's bits can be left alone of course.
Or swap Susannah York with Claudia Cardinale in Once upon a Time in the West.She would have looked great in Susanna York's kit in BoB.Susannah York's bits can be left alone of course.
XJ Flyer said:
Yertis said:
I wonder if it would be possible to 'remaster' BoB using CGI to correct and enhance the aerial scenes? I'm sure it would. Then we'd all be happy, provided it was done intelligently of course, preferably with Eric as technical advisor.
Susannah York's bits can be left alone of course.
Or swap Susannah York with Claudia Cardinale in Once upon a Time in the West.She would have looked great in Susanna York's kit in BoB.Susannah York's bits can be left alone of course.
Yertis said:
I wonder if it would be possible to 'remaster' BoB using CGI to correct and enhance the aerial scenes? I'm sure it would. Then we'd all be happy.
I wouldn't be.I've yet to see any CGI film that has remotely accurate flying sequences....it would be a travesty to attempt a remake of BoB.
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