Post Nimrod

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saaby93

Original Poster:

32,038 posts

177 months

Tuesday 9th December 2014
quotequote all
We have no cover now Nimrod's gone
XV230 pre crash frown

This is what Nimrod used to do
wikipedia said:
The Nimrods were often used to enforce Operation Tapestry. Tapestry is a codeword for the activities by ships and aircraft that protect the United Kingdom's Sovereign Sea Areas, including the protection of fishing rights and oil and gas extraction. Following the establishment of a 200 nautical miles (370 km) Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) at the beginning of 1977 the Nimrod fleet was given the task of patrolling the 270,000 square miles (700,000 km2) area. The aircraft would locate, identify, and photograph vessels operating in the EEZ. The whole area was routinely patrolled; in addition to surveillance, the aircraft would communicate with all oil and gas platforms. In 1978, an airborne Nimrod arrested an illegal fishing vessel in the Western Approaches and made the vessel proceed to Milford Haven for further investigation. During the Icelandic Cod Wars of 1972 and 1975–1976, the Nimrod fleet closely cooperated with Royal Navy surface vessels to protect British civilian fishing ships.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Siddeley_Nimrod

Now we have nothing to look for subs
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-30398114
Or do we?

ecsrobin

17,019 posts

164 months

Tuesday 9th December 2014
quotequote all
The BBC article does have the answer wink

saaby93

Original Poster:

32,038 posts

177 months

Tuesday 9th December 2014
quotequote all
ecsrobin said:
The BBC article does have the answer wink
Well spotted smile


wikipedia said:
In 2010 the UK government's Strategic Defence and Security Review announced its intention to "withdraw the Sentinel airborne ground surveillance aircraft once it is no longer required to support operations in Afghanistan." Sentinel has supported the British Army in Afghanistan. One Sentinel aircraft was deployed to assist French forces in Mali on 25 January 2013. The 2010 decision was reversed in 2014 by Prime Minister David Cameron. It will remain in RAF service until at least 2018.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raytheon_Sentinel

ecsrobin

17,019 posts

164 months

Tuesday 9th December 2014
quotequote all
A very capable aircraft, and the images it can produce are superb they did release some images from the floods earlier this year that shows off the capability.

Rivet joint may also be able to conduct a maritime role although I've not paid much attention to it.

I believe there has also been a push to buy the P8 Poseidon based on a 737 which is a very good aircraft and a favourite of mine.

Ginetta G15 Girl

3,220 posts

183 months

Tuesday 9th December 2014
quotequote all
Nimrod did a lot more than just TAPESTRIES. In fact Op TAPESTRY was binned for the Nimrod force in the early/mid 1980s with Fisheries (and to an extent Rig) Protection being taken on by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (MAFF) and given out to civilian tender.

Nimrod (pre-Op HERRICK) did a number of jobs in the ASW (Anti Submarine Warfare), ASuW (Anti Surface Unit Warfare), SAR (Search and Rescue) and Intelligence Gathering roles (most of which remain classified). From Op HERRICK onwards it became a truely multi-mode capable platform.



I am intrigued as to why people think that either Sentinel or Rivet joint are able to hunt submarines, let alone do the range of roles that Nimrod performed

While they may be able to provide a (limited) SURPIC (Surface Picture) there is a shed load more to being a LRMPA (Long Range Maritime Patrol Aircraft) than that!

Personally I find it somewhat embarrassing that an island nation such as the UK can no longer patrol our own SLoCs (Sea Lanes of Communication), but has to go cap in hand to beg our allies to do the job for us with less capability than what we originally had.



As for P8 Poseidon, while that has superb capability in a number of areas, for a number of reasons I remain to be convinced it will be any good in the ASW arena.

Edited by Ginetta G15 Girl on Tuesday 9th December 22:45

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 9th December 2014
quotequote all
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
While they may be able to provide a (limited) SURPIC (Surface Picture) there is a shed load more to being a LRMPA (Long Range Maritime Patrol Aircraft) than that!
Isn't it simply just a lack of money and the MOD being wary after having their fingers burnt (thorough their own actions) over nimrod.


Ginetta G15 Girl

3,220 posts

183 months

Tuesday 9th December 2014
quotequote all
I have no doubt British WasteofSpace reamed the Government over MRA4. When the MoD announced it was going to purchase 'Nimrod 2000' (back in 1996/7) many of us thought it was a mistake and that we should have accepted the compromise of P7 (unfortunately the USN pulled the plug on that).

Having said that, both the previous Govt, as well as the present shower, serially lied over the cost and capability of MRA4 - unit cost rocketed because we reduced the number of airframes ordered again and again (overall cost stayed about the same). Additionally the loss of the MR2 XV230 and the subsequent Haddon-Cave report really made the Nimrod name 'toxic' and it was easier to sweep it away (and waste all that money) rather than see the project through. I guess that's what you get when you let hairdressers, telephone sanitisers, marketeers, and bloody spin merchants run a Govt...

It's also worth pointing out that the P8 Mission System is a watered down version of that in MRA4.

All of which is moot. We can no longer protect our SLoCs nor can we fulfill our International Treaty Obligation to maintain SAR out to 30 West.


You couldn't make it up!

ecsrobin

17,019 posts

164 months

Tuesday 9th December 2014
quotequote all
Raytheon got the contract a month or 2 ago to upgrade sentinel to be able to fulfil more of a maritime role although it looks to be more surface vessels and periscopes.

Whilst I know it doesn't fulfill the role of nimrod it does mean we have something rather than nothing. Combined with helicopter born ASW we have a limited capability.

saaby93

Original Poster:

32,038 posts

177 months

Tuesday 9th December 2014
quotequote all
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
You couldn't make it up!
Agreed

Rivet Joint scratchchin


http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/rc135wrivetjoint.c...

Shadow looks like it can do the business




Edited by saaby93 on Tuesday 9th December 23:27

Ginetta G15 Girl

3,220 posts

183 months

Tuesday 9th December 2014
quotequote all
ecsrobin said:
Raytheon got the contract a month or 2 ago to upgrade sentinel to be able to fulfil more of a maritime role although it looks to be more surface vessels and periscopes.

Whilst I know it doesn't fulfill the role of nimrod it does mean we have something rather than nothing. Combined with helicopter born ASW we have a limited capability.
There is a huge difference between the (admittedly) software controlled SLAR (Sideways Looking Synthetic Aperture Radar) fitted to the Sentinel and a Radar (such as Searchwater) that has the ability to find 'Snorts' (Submarine masts/periscopes). Especially in any sort of 'Sea State' as you routinely find in the EASTLANT AOR (Area of Responsibility). The chances of Sentinel doing that are the square root of fk all!


There is also (without getting into the Classified arena) a huge difference between a Radar that will 'see' a snort and a Radar that can home on a snort (let alone a 'Riser-Sinker' and the consequences thereof). Then if Sentinel could do that, what does it do when it reaches the Datum? It's hardly got any weapons capability! And if it gets to the Datum and the boat has submerged, then what the fk does it do? How does it prosecute the target?

And that doesn't address the Sentinel's lack of range!

Sentinel + Helo ASW, really? That'll be us doing ASW out to about 100 miles off the coast then (if we are lucky).

Whoop De Doo!


The Lunatics have taken over the asylum...

Eric Mc

121,779 posts

264 months

Tuesday 9th December 2014
quotequote all
A few of the ex-Nimrod crews are working on P8s with the US Navy and the RAAF. The P8 that was demonstrated at Farnborough this year had quite a few British crew on board, including the pilot who I spoke to.

Ginetta G15 Girl

3,220 posts

183 months

Wednesday 10th December 2014
quotequote all
They call it 'Seedcorn' Eric. Whether it will be enough to rebuild a core capability that was fked over by Cameron and his merry mob of tossers remains to be seen...

Ryan T

11 posts

117 months

Wednesday 10th December 2014
quotequote all
labour, doing the worst project management ever, killed Nimrod. Cameron made the correct choice. We couldn't keep pouring money into a pit at that point in Time..

Also are we forgetting, we have subs to watch the sea.

P8 is a good platform. And the way forward IMO. Loads of parts, plenty of skillset to maintain them in our own country.

ecsrobin

17,019 posts

164 months

Wednesday 10th December 2014
quotequote all
Ryan T said:
labour, doing the worst project management ever, killed Nimrod. Cameron made the correct choice. We couldn't keep pouring money into a pit at that point in Time..

Also are we forgetting, we have subs to watch the sea.

P8 is a good platform. And the way forward IMO. Loads of parts, plenty of skillset to maintain them in our own country.
+1

As for the sentinel upgrade apparently its capable of working in high sea States although this is all press talk and it would be interesting to know what it's true capability is (I doubt we'll find out)

So ginetta what would be your solution to the problem? Obviously we cant have nimrod back so what aircraft out there is up to the job?

saaby93

Original Poster:

32,038 posts

177 months

Wednesday 10th December 2014
quotequote all

andy97

4,691 posts

221 months

Wednesday 10th December 2014
quotequote all
ecsrobin said:
Obviously we cant have nimrod back so what aircraft out there is up to the job?
Lease some P3 Orions I would have thought, in a similar way to our lease (or is it purchase?) of the Rivet Joint aircraft. Might need to borrow some crew, in addition to the "seed corn", I would have thought, too, as I think we have closed down our own training pipeline and probably would not have enough to man even a small fleet.

Yertis

18,016 posts

265 months

Wednesday 10th December 2014
quotequote all
Ryan T said:
labour, doing the worst project management ever, killed Nimrod. Cameron made the correct choice. We couldn't keep pouring money into a pit at that point in Time..

Also are we forgetting, we have subs to watch the sea.

P8 is a good platform. And the way forward IMO. Loads of parts, plenty of skillset to maintain them in our own country.
Why did we have to scrap all the airframes though? Couldn't we have just put them 'on hold' until we have sufficient to finish them off? By the logic apparently applied, I should have chopped up my TR6 years ago.

richw_82

992 posts

185 months

Wednesday 10th December 2014
quotequote all
saaby93 said:
You wouldn't believe how many people have been saying that. Every time this topic of conversation pops up anywhere, we get e-mails about our Shackleton (and Nimrod to some extent.) Truth is the Shack was a good aircraft, but way out of date in a maritime role by 1969.


Simpo Two

85,148 posts

264 months

Wednesday 10th December 2014
quotequote all
There's a flying Catalina - we could stuff that full of modern gubbins and send it out. As long as speed isn't important.

Yertis

18,016 posts

265 months

Wednesday 10th December 2014
quotequote all
Simpo Two said:
There's a flying Catalina - we could stuff that full of modern gubbins and send it out. As long as speed isn't important.
And a Swordfish, quite a diverse and capable fleet we have when you think about it.