WWII battleship IJN Musashi found
Discussion
I don't recall any historian saying that the Japanese ever intended to attack the US West Coast. They tried to destroy the US Pacific Fleet at Pearl because they perceived it as a threat to their expansion in the Far East. Presumably they felt that they could deal with any counter-attack, or maybe that the Imperialist Running Dogs were too soft to do anything/the US public had no stomach for a fight (witness 'America First').
jmorgan said:
castex said:
Just to mention that Battleship is on Film4 tonight at 21:00. Ah gwaan, it's a larf!
Caught that on a flight. It is OK brains out fun film. I mean, hand brake turn and fire, what more can you want. Its pants, its rubbish, so bad it is good.
I liked it, even for all it's faults.
SWTH said:
Thought of this thread whilst I spent a significant amount of my working day in the TV room watching Battle of the River Plate.
Another capital ship wasted. Graf Spee was great at attacking unarmed merchantmen, but the moment a real scrap was on the horizon they just scuttled it.Simpo Two said:
SWTH said:
Thought of this thread whilst I spent a significant amount of my working day in the TV room watching Battle of the River Plate.
Another capital ship wasted. Graf Spee was great at attacking unarmed merchantmen, but the moment a real scrap was on the horizon they just scuttled it.Under the circumstances I can entirely understand Hans Langsdorff's decision.
Bear in mind, he had limited fuel (the fuel oil purifying plant had been hit in the scrap with Exeter, Ajax and Achilles), limited food, limited ammunition and little hope of being able to escape, thanks to reports of a large British task force waiting just outside Montevideo to destroy the Graf Spee, including battleships that could easily outrange and sink her before she got within firing range for her own guns to do any worthwhile damage. Even if Langsdorff had made a run for Buenos Aires (the only reasonable option), there were concerns that her draft was too deep to navigate the channel into Buenos Aires, and even then if she had made it at all, there was still a very big chance of being interned, which is what would have happened anyway had they stayed in Uruguay. Why sacrifice the crew in what appeared to be an entirely unwinnable situation? Better to scuttle the ship, deny the enemy the propaganda coup of a German ship interned in an Allied-friendly neutral country, and let the crew live.
We know that actually, Langsdorff had a very decent chance of making it to the open sea, potentially meeting with the supply ship Altmark and making a slow plod to somewhere repairs could be made in order to sail back to Germany. If Langsdorff had known that, maybe his actions would have been very different.
From what I have read of Langsdorff, he seems to have been a seaman first, German second and Nazi a fairly distant third. It says something of the man that his grave in South America was honoured by both the Germans and British. To avoid charges of cowardice he shot himself three days after the scuttling, whilst lying on the Graf Spee's battle ensign in a hotel room - he had wanted to go down with his ship but couldn't because he still needed to finalise arrangements for his crew.
Bear in mind, he had limited fuel (the fuel oil purifying plant had been hit in the scrap with Exeter, Ajax and Achilles), limited food, limited ammunition and little hope of being able to escape, thanks to reports of a large British task force waiting just outside Montevideo to destroy the Graf Spee, including battleships that could easily outrange and sink her before she got within firing range for her own guns to do any worthwhile damage. Even if Langsdorff had made a run for Buenos Aires (the only reasonable option), there were concerns that her draft was too deep to navigate the channel into Buenos Aires, and even then if she had made it at all, there was still a very big chance of being interned, which is what would have happened anyway had they stayed in Uruguay. Why sacrifice the crew in what appeared to be an entirely unwinnable situation? Better to scuttle the ship, deny the enemy the propaganda coup of a German ship interned in an Allied-friendly neutral country, and let the crew live.
We know that actually, Langsdorff had a very decent chance of making it to the open sea, potentially meeting with the supply ship Altmark and making a slow plod to somewhere repairs could be made in order to sail back to Germany. If Langsdorff had known that, maybe his actions would have been very different.
From what I have read of Langsdorff, he seems to have been a seaman first, German second and Nazi a fairly distant third. It says something of the man that his grave in South America was honoured by both the Germans and British. To avoid charges of cowardice he shot himself three days after the scuttling, whilst lying on the Graf Spee's battle ensign in a hotel room - he had wanted to go down with his ship but couldn't because he still needed to finalise arrangements for his crew.
Edited by SWTH on Thursday 12th March 21:23
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