WWII battleship IJN Musashi found

[IanMorewood]

FourWheelDrift said:

Yamato was on a suicide mission on it's own, Musashi had no air cover, Bismarck was on it's own and Tirpitz was stationary in a Norwegian fjord. Repluse and PoW had no air cover. Aircraft carriers on their own or with little escort were also sunk such, Hermes, Glorious, Courageous and Ark Royal. Doesn't make them white elephants. Glorious was sunk by the big guns of the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau.

When used properly within a battle group they were very effective, in the Pacific, Salerno landings, Normandy. Post Pearl Harbour the USN never lost a Battleship but they operated in every theatre of the US Navy's war effort.

A big ship can carry a lot of big weapons, more Harpoon and Cruise missiles for long range precision attacks than a smaller lighter built cruiser or destroyer, but if you have a target within 20-25 miles then you do not want to be on the end of 9x16" shells hitting you twice every minute.

The Iowa's might cost a lot to run, but in terms of years of service and cost-effectiveness they are a bargain.

If you want a bargain of a naval boat Brazil have a monitor still in active service built in the 30's

http://www.defesaaereanaval.com.br/tag/monitor-par...

[maffski]

irocfan said:

MBBlat said:

Simpo Two said:

Good stuff; nothing like a proper battleship - perhaps too vulnerable to take on Putin etc but excellent for dispatching lesser troublemakers from a safe distance. I'm a great fan of 16" shells

A lot of manpower required for a very limited utility, there is a reason that everyone else has got rid of their battleships.

for taking out lesser troublemakers at an even grater distance you use one of these

or these

I'd imagine that dumping a stload of shells on the lawn, so to speak, would be somewhat cheaper than a dozen cruise-missiles...

Which is why the US Navy is planning to test a rail gun on a ship next year. If it works as claimed then it fires over 100 miles at mach 5 for a cost of $25k per shot.

[MBBlat]

maffski said:

Which is why the US Navy is planning to test a rail gun on a ship next year. If it works as claimed then it fires over 100 miles at mach 5 for a cost of $25k per shot.

And those railguns are intended for destroyers & frigates which can do other things other than NGFS (Naval Gun Fire Support). The US Navy don't want a hugely expensive to maintain, obsolescent, manpower intensive single role which is why they were all decommissioned in 2006. They only stayed around that long because Congress thought that warships should have lots of big guns.

Big gun battleships have been obsolescent since 7th June 1942. Offensive firepower is now undertaken by aircraft carriers & submarines, every other ship is primarily defensive.

[V8 Fettler]

SWTH said:

V8 Fettler said:

Musashi was a big beggar, but she lagged behind the best Allied vessels in the fire control and speed. I'm sure Iowa vs Musashi (or Yamato) has been done to death elsewhere.

The only real unknown is how an Iowa would last in a situation of constant enemy bombardment - none of them were sunk. The only ships proven capable of taking a severe battering for sustained periods of time were the battleships of the Kriegsmarine - look at how many managed to limp back from Jutland with damage that would have sunk many other dreadnoughts (including those of the Royal Navy), and look at the punishment meted out to Bismarck in the final hours - even then she had to be sunk by destroyers close in with torpedoes (and aided by the crew opening the scuttling valves) rather than by the big guns.

The Yamatos also had a big advantage in their beam not being restricted to the width of the Panama Canal. More width, more armour, vital machinery further away from impact points all aid survival, and as much as the superstructure could be mangled by enemy guns, holes above the waterline do not sink a ship unless (especially in the case of the Hood) they hit something that'll make a far bigger explosion.

Several variables, including:
Iowa using superior fire control to hit Yamato/Musashi from extreme range, return fire being inaccurate.
Night shoot by Iowa using superior fire control (particularly radar), Japanese radar was a long way behind the Allies.
Iowa can use superior speed to move out of range of Yamato/Musashi

Bismarck didn't take the sustained fire from Rodney particularly well. Bismarck may well have been afloat, but Rodney finished her as a fighting vessel without receiving a single hit from Bismarck's main armament. Well done Royal Navy and so much for the much-vaunted Bismarck.

[IanMorewood]

KGV and Rodney only got away lightly due to the very predictable path of Bismark with a stuck rudder and a severely limited top speed. Had she been in full health given the odds Bismarck would have run to Brest and the Luftwaffe and threat of Uboats would have stopped the Home Fleet getting close enough to fight.

[V8 Fettler]

All of Bismarck's much-vaunted main armament was functional when Rodney engaged, the greatest damage to Rodney was associated with the full broadsides shot by ... err .... Rodney.

It's easy to make "what if" excuses for the Bismarck, but the fact remains that the RN took the battle to the Kriegsmarine, and that was the end of it.

[FourWheelDrift]

You also have to remember that KGV would have had to steam at low speed (20-23knts max) or leave Rodney behind when a un-damaged Bismarck could have sped to Brest at 30. Even at max speed it was still slower than the Bismarck.

Then you have the what if scenario, of Bismarck, Scharnhost and Gneisenau heading out.

[HarryW]

scubadude said:

IanMorewood said:

I would have thought it fairly simple to locate a ship of such size sunk relatively recently, article though says it's taken him 8years of searching.

For what its worth we (divers) have found new wrecks in sight of shore where even the date, time and location of the sinking where known but the wreck was essentially "lost" because the sea is a tricky bugger :-)

Also, despite a 300mtr long battleship being pretty big once you sink it in an ocean full of valley's and mountain ranges its hard to find- try to find a whole ski resort in the alps, at night, during a power cut from an airliner without a map for example :-)

..and people question why MH370 will probably never be found.

[V8 Fettler]

FourWheelDrift said:

You also have to remember that KGV would have had to steam at low speed (20-23knts max) or leave Rodney behind when a un-damaged Bismarck could have sped to Brest at 30. Even at max speed it was still slower than the Bismarck.

Then you have the what if scenario, of Bismarck, Scharnhost and Gneisenau heading out.

Happy times for the RN, all the enemy's capital ships exactly where the RN wanted them: out of the protected ports and onto the high seas. They would have all been sunk by the RN.

You can create many "what ifs", but the reality is that the RN sunk the Bismarck on her first sailing into the North Atlantic, the Tirpitz would have met the same fate if she had dared to venture into the Atlantic.

[irocfan]

would the RN have sunk the Nazi capital ships? In all likelihood - yes. Would it have been an easy victory? Not a chance - it would have been a victory which would have proved exceedingly costly, however it is one the British Empire would have been better suited to absorb than Nazi Germany


here is an interesting discussion about this very thing...
http://kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=762

Edited by irocfan on Sunday 8th March 14:41

[FourWheelDrift]

What was in the area to fight the Bismarck - KGV (needed refuelling) and is slower and has less fire power and armour than Bismarck, Rodney very slow and hadn't had a refit for years, Ramillies very old, very slow then Repulse and Renown, the only ones fast enough but under gunned and under armoured. So what you would have if Bismarck had made it to Brest would be a 3 ship force faster and more powerful than anything we had in the area tying up resources from other theatres and severely constricting other operations in the Atlantic, Indian Ocean, the Mediterranean and the Pacific. Italy might have actually achieved something in the Med and the Japanese would have been a bigger threat to India and Australia in the East.





Anyway, back to Musashi.

This is a piece of Yamato class 26 inch thick armour plating, the thickest on the ship (frontal armour to main gun turrets) found at Kure Naval Base at the end of WWII and tested by the USN, the big hole was made by a 16" shell. Range would have been quote short though. Or they would probably have missed

[V8 Fettler]

irocfan said:

would the RN have sunk the Nazi capital ships? In all likelihood - yes. Would it have been an easy victory? Not a chance - it would have been a victory which would have proved exceedingly costly, however it is one the British Empire would have been better suited to absorb than Nazi Germany


here is an interesting discussion about this very thing...
http://kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=762

Edited by irocfan on Sunday 8th March 14:41

RN would have planned for the loss of two RN capital ships for the loss of each Kriegsmarine capital ship. To finish the German surface threat in one operation would have been a gift.

[V8 Fettler]

FourWheelDrift said:

What was in the area to fight the Bismarck - KGV (needed refuelling) and is slower and has less fire power and armour than Bismarck, Rodney very slow and hadn't had a refit for years, Ramillies very old, very slow then Repulse and Renown, the only ones fast enough but under gunned and under armoured. So what you would have if Bismarck had made it to Brest would be a 3 ship force faster and more powerful than anything we had in the area tying up resources from other theatres and severely constricting other operations in the Atlantic, Indian Ocean, the Mediterranean and the Pacific. Italy might have actually achieved something in the Med and the Japanese would have been a bigger threat to India and Australia in the East.

RN dispositions July 1941 http://www.naval-history.net/xDKWW2-4107-34aRNHome... , would not have been much different in late May 1941. Home and Mediterranean Fleet would have been more than sufficient to deal with everything the Germans had, it would have been a great advantage to the RN if the Kreigsmarine in its entirety had presented itself for sinking.

[IanMorewood]

You couldn't take the fleet out of the Med though or nothing's getting to North Africa or Malta, in fact a naval assault on Malta becomes a possibility as the Italians would have had overwhelming naval power in mid 41.

[SWTH]

I think after the sinking of the Hood it wouldn't have mattered whether it was just Bismarck & Prinz Eugen or whether the German surface group included Scharnhorst & Gneisenau too. The Royal Navy had to sink the Bismarck.

That said, had there been a bigger surface fleet, then the RN wouldn't have only sent KGV and Hood (plus escorts etc) initially.

Tirpitz was far more effective for far longer at causing headaches and problems for the admiralty, purely by existing.

[V8 Fettler]

IanMorewood said:

You couldn't take the fleet out of the Med though or nothing's getting to North Africa or Malta, in fact a naval assault on Malta becomes a possibility as the Italians would have had overwhelming naval power in mid 41.

No requirement to transfer the whole Med fleet! Link was to demonstrate the RN strength in depth. The Italians were paralysed after Matapan, so a Queen Elizabeth class battleship, a few cruisers and the perceived threat of a Swordfish or two would be sufficient to keep the Italians in port until the very best of the Kriegsmarine surface fleet takes its destined place at the bottom of the Atlantic.

[FourWheelDrift]

V8 Fettler said:

No requirement to transfer the whole Med fleet! Link was to demonstrate the RN strength in depth.

On that link there are many minesweepers and destroyers & cruisers that are on convoy escort that can not take on the Bismarck alone or en mass. The only ships listed on that link of yours are actually the same as I have already mentioned, without Ramillies.

KGV slower than the 3 German ships, 27kts
Sister ship PoW (in dry dock repair due to it's last encounter)
Repluse, fast enough but not enough firepower and thinly armoured
Nelson & Rodney, way too slow (23kt max)

Aircraft carriers
Argus, very small slow WWI era flat top usually demoted to transport duties.
Furious, ferrying aircraft to the Med/Malta
Victorious, based out of Gib but needed for many operations and if out hunting the BSG then there's nothing covering the Med, especially after Ark Royal is sunk.
Audacity, small escort carrier used for convoy duties.

[Simpo Two]

I think the decision to send Prinz Eugen away could have been a fatal tactical error, as well as the decision not to sink Suffolk which was shadowing her. But the most famous ship in the Royal Navy had just been destroyed with virtually a single shell, and I think this made the crew of Bismarck feel indestructible.

Yes the RN won the scrap, but it was a very close run thing. One lucky torpedo hit. Bismarck was the match of or better than any one of her pursuers - but crippled and outnumbered.

[V8 Fettler]

FourWheelDrift said:

On that link there are many minesweepers and destroyers & cruisers that are on convoy escort that can not take on the Bismarck alone or en mass. The only ships listed on that link of yours are actually the same as I have already mentioned, without Ramillies.

KGV slower than the 3 German ships, 27kts
Sister ship PoW (in dry dock repair due to it's last encounter)
Repluse, fast enough but not enough firepower and thinly armoured
Nelson & Rodney, way too slow (23kt max)

Aircratf carriers
Argus, very small slow WWI era flat top usually demoted to transport duties.
Furious, ferrying aircraft to the Med/Malta
Victorious, based out of Gib but needed for many operations and if out hunting the BSG then there's nothing covering the Med, especially after Ark Royal is sunk.
Audacity, small escort carrier used for convoy duties.

RN cruisers and destroyers not capable of taking on larger enemy vessels? That would have been news for the RN 1939 - 1945. Cruisers played a vital role in the destruction of the Bismarck and the Scharnhorst. You've completely ignored the "T" class boats, specifically designed to deal with enemy capital ships.

[V8 Fettler]

Simpo Two said:

I think the decision to send Prinz Eugen away could have been a fatal tactical error, as well as the decision not to sink Suffolk which was shadowing her. But the most famous ship in the Royal Navy had just been destroyed with virtually a single shell, and I think this made the crew of Bismarck feel indestructible.

Yes the RN won the scrap, but it was a very close run thing. One lucky torpedo hit. Bismarck was the match of or better than any one of her pursuers - but crippled and outnumbered.

There was nothing "close run" about Rodney's destruction of the Bismarck. Bismarck's main armament was fully operational as Rodney approached, but Rodney emerged virtually unscathed.