WWII battleship IJN Musashi found

[Simpo Two]

V8 Fettler said:

There was nothing "close run" about Rodney's destruction of the Bismarck. Bismarck's main armament was fully operational as Rodney approached, but Rodney emerged virtually unscathed.

Had it not been for the lucky torpedo strike Bismarck would have been home safe in Brest. That is what I meant by 'close run'. And a crippled ship is not fully able to engage in combat, just as a crippled aircraft is not. Once she was circling at 10kts it was only a question of time as the RN came pounding up.

[FourWheelDrift]

V8 Fettler said:

RN cruisers and destroyers not capable of taking on larger enemy vessels? That would have been news for the RN 1939 - 1945. Cruisers played a vital role in the destruction of the Bismarck and the Scharnhorst. You've completely ignored the "T" class boats, specifically designed to deal with enemy capital ships.

You seriously think a 6 inch or even 8 inch gunned cruiser could fight 1 one 1 with Bismarck, Sharn or Gne? That's why Norfolk and Suffolk didn't do anything in the Denmark Strait, they would stand a chance. Even in a big group they would be outranged by the guns of the German ships. They were only involved at Bismarck's end because it was only making minimum speed and was turning directly towards the RN ships.

Any by T-Class, you mean the T-Class Destroyers, the ones that weren't commissioned until late 1943.

[V8 Fettler]

Simpo Two said:

V8 Fettler said:

There was nothing "close run" about Rodney's destruction of the Bismarck. Bismarck's main armament was fully operational as Rodney approached, but Rodney emerged virtually unscathed.

Had it not been for the lucky torpedo strike Bismarck would have been home safe in Brest. That is what I meant by 'close run'. And a crippled ship is not fully able to engage in combat, just as a crippled aircraft is not. Once she was circling at 10kts it was only a question of time as the RN came pounding up.

"Lucky" torpedo strike? Was the Swordfish pilot aiming at something other than the Bismarck? Bismark was fully capable of delivering a full broadside when she engaged Rodney, but the British ship was substantially more effective than the Bismarck. Or was that just more luck?

Rodney was probably the most effective delivery platform for conventional weapons in WW2.

[IanMorewood]

Circling at 8-10 knots with a list your gun calcs are going to be far harder to target a battleship that is making 20+ knots and changes course after every salvo. On the other hand the RN have a plot as to where you've been and where you are going to be in 10, 20, 30.... 90 seconds time so their calculations should be more accurate.

[V8 Fettler]

FourWheelDrift said:

V8 Fettler said:

RN cruisers and destroyers not capable of taking on larger enemy vessels? That would have been news for the RN 1939 - 1945. Cruisers played a vital role in the destruction of the Bismarck and the Scharnhorst. You've completely ignored the "T" class boats, specifically designed to deal with enemy capital ships.

You seriously think a 6 inch or even 8 inch gunned cruiser could fight 1 one 1 with Bismarck, Sharn or Gne? That's why Norfolk and Suffolk didn't do anything in the Denmark Strait, they would stand a chance. Even in a big group they would be outranged by the guns of the German ships. They were only involved at Bismarck's end because it was only making minimum speed and was turning directly towards the RN ships.

Any by T-Class, you mean the T-Class Destroyers, the ones that weren't commissioned until late 1943.

Suffolk and Norfolk shadowed Bismarck, a vital role to ensure that the German target didn't escape. Suffolk and Norfolk also fired on the Bismarck, but the range was too great.

Norfolk and Belfast both fired on Scharnhorst (1944), Norfolk destroying the majority of Scharnhorst's radar capability, British destroyers subsequently successfully slowed the Scharnhorst by torpedo attack. So much for the ineffectiveness of cruisers and destroyers.

You appear confused by the concept of a fleet action. Clearly, the RN wouldn't allow just one vessel to engage the enemy when other RN ships are in the vicinity, why would they do such a thing? However, if the stakes were high enough then certainly an RN vessel would engage the enemy closely irrespective of the odds, see Glowworm and Hipper.

Boat = submarine, early T-class had a salvo of 10 torpedoes.

[Simpo Two]

V8 Fettler said:

"Lucky" torpedo strike? Was the Swordfish pilot aiming at something other than the Bismarck? Bismark was fully capable of delivering a full broadside when she engaged Rodney, but the British ship was substantially more effective than the Bismarck. Or was that just more luck?

Oh come along, you're not thinking. It was extremely lucky that the torpdedo struck exactly where it did and jammed the rudder. Had it struck anywhere else it would have done very little damage, certainly nothing that would have slowed the ship enough to let the RN catch up.

Only two torpedoes hit the target at all. Read what happened at http://www.kbismarck.com/article2.html

[V8 Fettler]

Simpo Two said:

V8 Fettler said:

"Lucky" torpedo strike? Was the Swordfish pilot aiming at something other than the Bismarck? Bismark was fully capable of delivering a full broadside when she engaged Rodney, but the British ship was substantially more effective than the Bismarck. Or was that just more luck?

Oh come along, you're not thinking. It was extremely lucky that the torpdedo struck exactly where it did and jammed the rudder. Had it struck anywhere else it would have done very little damage, certainly nothing that would have slowed the ship enough to let the RN catch up.

Only two torpedoes hit the target at all. Read what happened at http://www.kbismarck.com/article2.html

Were these the only torpedoes fired then? The Swordfish pilot aimed at the Bismarck, he hit the Bismarck. Well done to the Swordfish pilot. Thanks for the link, one of many.

[williamp]

FourWheelDrift said:

That's Iowa demonstrating it's guns after it's 1984 recommisioning

another view, kaboom

K

Where are those people in the other photo? Surely they wouldnt fire thst nany shells, twice??

[SWTH]

IanMorewood said:

Circling at 8-10 knots with a list your gun calcs are going to be far harder to target a battleship that is making 20+ knots and changes course after every salvo. On the other hand the RN have a plot as to where you've been and where you are going to be in 10, 20, 30.... 90 seconds time so their calculations should be more accurate.

Exactly this. Rodney was also able to present a much smaller target by virtue of being an 'all guns forward' design. Whilst unable to fire all nine main guns dead ahead, by steering 30 degrees one side or the other to the target all of the main armament could be brought to bear whilst reducing the exposed length by well over half.

[V8 Fettler]

IanMorewood said:

Circling at 8-10 knots with a list your gun calcs are going to be far harder to target a battleship that is making 20+ knots and changes course after every salvo. On the other hand the RN have a plot as to where you've been and where you are going to be in 10, 20, 30.... 90 seconds time so their calculations should be more accurate.

The first salvoes from Bismarck straddled Rodney, so the former was clearly very capable at that stage, irrespective of any slight list. Bismarck's biggest problem was that Rodney's fourth salvo destroyed Bismarck's "B" turret and killed many men on the bridge, "A" turret was also knocked out for 20 crucial minutes. Rodney subsequently destroyed Bismarck's "D" turret and the foretop fire control position.

In 25 minutes, the Bismarck went from a ship that was capable of straddling Rodney with her opening salvoes to being effectively blinded and virtually disarmed, by Rodney.

[Simpo Two]

V8 Fettler said:

Were these the only torpedoes fired then? The Swordfish pilot aimed at the Bismarck, he hit the Bismarck. Well done to the Swordfish pilot. Thanks for the link, one of many.

There were many torpedoes fired in several attacks. I didn't count them all up but maybe 20+.

You seem to imply that hitting Bismarck must have been easy because it was big. These facts tell you it was not - about 90% of the torpedoes missed completely! Plucky Biggles did not dive out of the sun thinking 'Aha, if I aim for the rudder I will force the ship to go in circles so the RN can catch up'.

And that is why a torpedo hit that struck Bismarck in the one, single, small area that it was vulnerable was very lucky. It was also luck that Bismarck was turning at the time (which was why Bismarck subsequently circled) - had the rudder been jammed 'straight' Rodney etc wouldn't caught up.

What happened after that was simply hare and hounds. Except the hare was tied to a post.

And had Prinz Eugen been there, although only an 8" cruiser, it would have drawn some fire.

1) Tactical errors by Lindemann
2) Lucky strike by torpedo
3) Crippled hare gets ripped to bits by vengeful superior force.

[V8 Fettler]

Simpo Two said:

V8 Fettler said:

Were these the only torpedoes fired then? The Swordfish pilot aimed at the Bismarck, he hit the Bismarck. Well done to the Swordfish pilot. Thanks for the link, one of many.

There were many torpedoes fired in several attacks. I didn't count them all up but maybe 20+.

You seem to imply that hitting Bismarck must have been easy because it was big. These facts tell you it was not - about 90% of the torpedoes missed completely! Plucky Biggles did not dive out of the sun thinking 'Aha, if I aim for the rudder I will force the ship to go in circles so the RN can catch up'.

And that is why a torpedo hit that struck Bismarck in the one, single, small area that it was vulnerable was very lucky. It was also luck that Bismarck was turning at the time (which was why Bismarck subsequently circled) - had the rudder been jammed 'straight' Rodney etc wouldn't caught up.

What happened after that was simply hare and hounds. Except the hare was tied to a post.

And had Prinz Eugen been there, although only an 8" cruiser, it would have drawn some fire.

1) Tactical errors by Lindemann
2) Lucky strike by torpedo
3) Crippled hare gets ripped to bits by vengeful superior force.

Therefore an alternative view is that the Bismarck was lucky to escape being hit by more than two torpedoes.

At a strategic level, the Germans were incompetent naval strategists, with the exception of Doenitz. Bismarck should have been used as bait to lure RN capital ships into a U-boat trap, leaving the convoys to the U-boats. There were other issues, e.g. lack of Condors and the jabbering U-boat skippers.

[Simpo Two]

V8 Fettler said:

Therefore an alternative view is that the Bismarck was lucky to escape being hit by more than two torpedoes.

I'll stay with the theory that in reality, over a rough Atlantic ocean in low light in a slow biplane whilst in a hail of AA fire, and with torpedoes going off track if they hit a wave wrongly, the ship was very difficult to hit. The alternative is that if it was easy to hit, they would all have hit it, no?

The fact that one torpedo *just happened* to hit the rudder while it *just happened* to be hard over wasn't a plan. If you won't accept luck, try bloody fortunate. It was the only spot the ship could have been torpedoed in to stop her reaching Brest. In his book 'I sank the Bismarck' John Moffat states that he aimed for the bow, dropped the torpedo and turned away. He wasn't going to hang about in a flakstorm for the 1.5 minutes it would take for the torpedo to hit. He had no idea whether it had hit or not.

You reckon it wasn't luck, I reckon it was. We'll leave it there. But I agree the Germans didn't know how to use surface ships; certainly no Nelsons.

[irocfan]

V8 Fettler said:

Therefore an alternative view is that the Bismarck was lucky to escape being hit by more than two torpedoes.

At a strategic level, the Germans were incompetent naval strategists, with the exception of Doenitz. Bismarck should have been used as bait to lure RN capital ships into a U-boat trap, leaving the convoys to the U-boats. There were other issues, e.g. lack of Condors and the jabbering U-boat skippers.

This ^^^ The question here though is how much of this had been caused by WWI and how much by Adolf being a complete muppet? Political interference and fear of 'getting it wrong' really does not help in that environment

[V8 Fettler]

Simpo Two said:

V8 Fettler said:

Therefore an alternative view is that the Bismarck was lucky to escape being hit by more than two torpedoes.

I'll stay with the theory that in reality, over a rough Atlantic ocean in low light in a slow biplane whilst in a hail of AA fire, and with torpedoes going off track if they hit a wave wrongly, the ship was very difficult to hit. The alternative is that if it was easy to hit, they would all have hit it, no?

The fact that one torpedo *just happened* to hit the rudder while it *just happened* to be hard over wasn't a plan. If you won't accept luck, try bloody fortunate. It was the only spot the ship could have been torpedoed in to stop her reaching Brest. In his book 'I sank the Bismarck' John Moffat states that he aimed for the bow, dropped the torpedo and turned away. He wasn't going to hang about in a flakstorm for the 1.5 minutes it would take for the torpedo to hit. He had no idea whether it had hit or not.

You reckon it wasn't luck, I reckon it was. We'll leave it there. But I agree the Germans didn't know how to use surface ships; certainly no Nelsons.

The Fleet Air Arm set out to sink or disable the Bismarck, the likelihood of the FAA planning on the basis of luck is low (the RN was a master at preserving assets). The FAA achieved its aim. Which part of that involves luck?

There are many "what ifs" with regards to the sinking of the Bismarck, including German damage repair teams being forbidden from trying more robust methods of easing the rudder.

There are claims that Lt "Feather" Godfrey-Faussett was responsible for the torpedo hit on the rudder.





Edit: Fleet Air Arm Air Arm

Edited by V8 Fettler on Monday 9th March 17:24

[irocfan]

V8 Fettler said:

There are many "what ifs" with regards to the sinking of the Bismarck, including German damage repair teams being forbidden from trying more robust methods of easing the rudder.

seriously??? WTF???? (though obviously good news for us!)

[V8 Fettler]

irocfan said:

V8 Fettler said:

There are many "what ifs" with regards to the sinking of the Bismarck, including German damage repair teams being forbidden from trying more robust methods of easing the rudder.

seriously??? WTF???? (though obviously good news for us!)

The use of explosive charges was forbidden, reportedly.

[Mr. Potato Head]

Bismark going round in circles looks like a myth

[IanMorewood]

Yep sticking a diver over the side with some cutting gear or some plastic explosive to loose the rudder happend more than once. Guess replacing Bisis rudder though would have been a pretty major job needing a large safe dry dock.

[castex]

I remember my Grandfather's good friend Roy telling me all about the Bismark sinking from his perspective on the Norfolk, I think it was. I wish he, they, were still here so he could tell it to me again.