Germanwings Crash
Discussion
Yes smells of foul-play to me. Surely if whoever was still in the cockpit was simply knocked-out / incapacitated for any reason, then the other member of the flight-deck who'd just been to the loo would just access the flight-deck door with his code. It seems that whoever was in the cockpit deliberately dead-locked it to prevent his colleague returning to the flight-deck. Proves how strong those doors are. I can't see it being anything other than a deliberate act.
Simpo Two said:
Max_Torque said:
er, its effectively a voice recorder, you know when it stopped (when the unfortunate plane hit the mountain) and you know the recording rate (samples/sec) so you have a time base. The "time stamping" is external simply to limit the size of the memory units that need the most protection, those with the actual voice data on them. It takes 2mins in excel or MATLAB to re-generate the time base.
Just saying what they said on the TV.So, all a rogue pilot has to do is wait until his colleague goes to the toilet, then lock the door and fly it into the ground (or saunter off over the Southern Ocean of course). Same applies if the sole pilot is disabled in some way.
The locking door was introduced as a result of anti-terrorist measures; ironically this time it seems to achieved much the same as what it was designed to prevent. There needs to be a way to get in.
Edited by Simpo Two on Thursday 26th March 11:39
BBC News are reporting that it is thought that the co-pilot, for some as yet unknown reason, was alone in the cockpit & seemed intent on destroying the aircraft.
With 150 innocent people on board.........
If that turns out to be true I cannot begin to imagine the terror that the passengers must have felt.
Hope that it is not the case however seems to be the only explanation for a steadily controlled glide down from 35000 feet.
With 150 innocent people on board.........
If that turns out to be true I cannot begin to imagine the terror that the passengers must have felt.
Hope that it is not the case however seems to be the only explanation for a steadily controlled glide down from 35000 feet.
northwest monkey said:
Or have 3 people in the cockpit so if one of them goes for a pee there are still 2 left.
Yep. Much better but not failsafe.fatboy69 said:
BBC News are reporting that it is thought that the co-pilot, for some as yet unknown reason, was alone in the cockpit & seemed intent on destroying the aircraft...
http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/mar/26/germanwings-plane-crash-investigation-press-conference-live-updates-4u9525 I don't think one 28-year old wth 630 hours should be left in sole charge of flying a passenger plane. But hindsight is a wonderful thing.
I expect there is a significant chance we will never be certain what happened in this case.
That said the maintenance of some form of two person presence in the cockpit will have been proven as a valuable control if the suicide or illness believers are right.
Can't help thinking that the practice of getting a cabin crew member in when one pilot leaves the cockpit, even if required by procedures, wouldn't be prone to being ignored.
That said the maintenance of some form of two person presence in the cockpit will have been proven as a valuable control if the suicide or illness believers are right.
Can't help thinking that the practice of getting a cabin crew member in when one pilot leaves the cockpit, even if required by procedures, wouldn't be prone to being ignored.
Tragic.
Haven't seen any reports of attempted phone calls, SMS or e-mails being sent by passengers/crew that might have been transmitted as the aircraft descended as one would have thought that any conscious passengers on board would have noticed that something was up, esp. if there was a commotion developing at the cockpit door....
Also curious to know at what point fighters would have been scrambled to intercept.... We know that the descent in total was 8mins but presumably it will have taken ATC some time to spot the deviation from the agreed flight plan and then their failed attempts to make contact so perhaps they wouldn't have left it much longer...
Haven't seen any reports of attempted phone calls, SMS or e-mails being sent by passengers/crew that might have been transmitted as the aircraft descended as one would have thought that any conscious passengers on board would have noticed that something was up, esp. if there was a commotion developing at the cockpit door....
Also curious to know at what point fighters would have been scrambled to intercept.... We know that the descent in total was 8mins but presumably it will have taken ATC some time to spot the deviation from the agreed flight plan and then their failed attempts to make contact so perhaps they wouldn't have left it much longer...
so very sad and unimaginable for those aware on board. RIP
A question I often ask, why has CVR etc not long since been upgraded to video, likewise data recorders. I have a fleet of trucks and we have 6 cameras on board recording to sealed DVR (which holds about a fortnight on it's hard drive.
Any incident and we have a view of the cab interior (driver awake/alert etc) forward view, two (i.e. one left one right 'wing mirror' views and a rear view and a load bayview. Pays us back many times when contesting accidents or just working on improving driver behaviour etc It if pays for a £60k truck even with the required extra robustness for an aircraft for it must be a worthwhile investment for incident investigation and hence future improvements whether it be design or procedures.
Cam in cockpit, cam in cabin and a couple of rear facing cams watching the wings/engines perhaps extra cams for undercarriage (how many pilots would like a view CCTV of their landing gear when a warning light blinks?)
Will never negate the random acts of individuals or the 'first known time' critical component failure but would go a massive way to contributing to investigation and learning opportunities not to say facilitating a better opportunity of 'closure' for loved ones .
Anyway, again RIP and thought with the family of the co-pilot also
A question I often ask, why has CVR etc not long since been upgraded to video, likewise data recorders. I have a fleet of trucks and we have 6 cameras on board recording to sealed DVR (which holds about a fortnight on it's hard drive.
Any incident and we have a view of the cab interior (driver awake/alert etc) forward view, two (i.e. one left one right 'wing mirror' views and a rear view and a load bayview. Pays us back many times when contesting accidents or just working on improving driver behaviour etc It if pays for a £60k truck even with the required extra robustness for an aircraft for it must be a worthwhile investment for incident investigation and hence future improvements whether it be design or procedures.
Cam in cockpit, cam in cabin and a couple of rear facing cams watching the wings/engines perhaps extra cams for undercarriage (how many pilots would like a view CCTV of their landing gear when a warning light blinks?)
Will never negate the random acts of individuals or the 'first known time' critical component failure but would go a massive way to contributing to investigation and learning opportunities not to say facilitating a better opportunity of 'closure' for loved ones .
Anyway, again RIP and thought with the family of the co-pilot also
Edited by Bluetoo on Thursday 26th March 16:16
mrloudly said:
Why don't they insist on another, door trained, cabin crew member been in the cockpit during lav breaks? Make life a whole lot harder for a fruitcake to lock themselves in!
EasyJet has just announced 2 crew members in the flight deck at all timesEdited by Mermaid on Thursday 26th March 17:42
Mermaid said:
mrloudly said:
Why don't they insist on another, door trained, cabin crew member been in the cockpit during lav breaks? Make life a whole lot harder for a fruitcake to lock themselves in!
EasyJet has just announced 2 crew members in the cabin at all times
The Big G said:
Mermaid said:
mrloudly said:
Why don't they insist on another, door trained, cabin crew member been in the cockpit during lav breaks? Make life a whole lot harder for a fruitcake to lock themselves in!
EasyJet has just announced 2 crew members in the cabin at all timesThat was just a little bit of light hearted banter. Smile
Extra crew member is just a knee jerk reaction to the problem for good PR. No steward or stewardess is going to be able to stop someone if they wanted too. What if it was the steward/ess that wanted to do this? Quickly incapacitate the other pilot the off they go? Most know the basics on how to fly the plane, or can easily ask the crew and they'll hapily be told. Children are even shown the basics on flught deck visits! All can be easily found out online.
There is no easy answer for this. Who'll be checking the checker? Mental testing is only as good as the test and at the time it's done? Should all the crew be tested immediately before each flight? These are educated risks which are taken every day in the industry.
Extra crew member is just a knee jerk reaction to the problem for good PR. No steward or stewardess is going to be able to stop someone if they wanted too. What if it was the steward/ess that wanted to do this? Quickly incapacitate the other pilot the off they go? Most know the basics on how to fly the plane, or can easily ask the crew and they'll hapily be told. Children are even shown the basics on flught deck visits! All can be easily found out online.
There is no easy answer for this. Who'll be checking the checker? Mental testing is only as good as the test and at the time it's done? Should all the crew be tested immediately before each flight? These are educated risks which are taken every day in the industry.
The Big G said:
That was just a little bit of light hearted banter. Smile
Extra crew member is just a knee jerk reaction to the problem for good PR. No steward or stewardess is going to be able to stop someone if they wanted too. What if it was the steward/ess that wanted to do this? Quickly incapacitate the other pilot the off they go? Most know the basics on how to fly the plane, or can easily ask the crew and they'll hapily be told. Children are even shown the basics on flught deck visits! All can be easily found out online.
There is no easy answer for this. Who'll be checking the checker? Mental testing is only as good as the test and at the time it's done? Should all the crew be tested immediately before each flight? These are educated risks which are taken every day in the industry.
Agreed, when will 2 become 3... & collusion between 2 is easy.Extra crew member is just a knee jerk reaction to the problem for good PR. No steward or stewardess is going to be able to stop someone if they wanted too. What if it was the steward/ess that wanted to do this? Quickly incapacitate the other pilot the off they go? Most know the basics on how to fly the plane, or can easily ask the crew and they'll hapily be told. Children are even shown the basics on flught deck visits! All can be easily found out online.
There is no easy answer for this. Who'll be checking the checker? Mental testing is only as good as the test and at the time it's done? Should all the crew be tested immediately before each flight? These are educated risks which are taken every day in the industry.
The Big G said:
That was just a little bit of light hearted banter. Smile
Extra crew member is just a knee jerk reaction to the problem for good PR. No steward or stewardess is going to be able to stop someone if they wanted too. What if it was the steward/ess that wanted to do this? Quickly incapacitate the other pilot the off they go? Most know the basics on how to fly the plane, or can easily ask the crew and they'll hapily be told. Children are even shown the basics on flught deck visits! All can be easily found out online.
There is no easy answer for this. Who'll be checking the checker? Mental testing is only as good as the test and at the time it's done? Should all the crew be tested immediately before each flight? These are educated risks which are taken every day in the industry.
Agreed, when will 2 become 3... & collusion between 2 is easy.Extra crew member is just a knee jerk reaction to the problem for good PR. No steward or stewardess is going to be able to stop someone if they wanted too. What if it was the steward/ess that wanted to do this? Quickly incapacitate the other pilot the off they go? Most know the basics on how to fly the plane, or can easily ask the crew and they'll hapily be told. Children are even shown the basics on flught deck visits! All can be easily found out online.
There is no easy answer for this. Who'll be checking the checker? Mental testing is only as good as the test and at the time it's done? Should all the crew be tested immediately before each flight? These are educated risks which are taken every day in the industry.
Simpo Two said:
The thing that doesn't make sense to me is that apparently the pilot's heartbeat remained constant all the time. You'd think even for a psycho it would go up a bit...
That is odd, he was super cool. I will go with odd - medical issue of some sort cannot be ruled out, i suppose. But he did change the settings to descend to ground level.GSP said:
How the hell do they know his heartbeat, I presume he's not hooked up to a machine, and surely the audio is not that sensitive?
They did say his breathing was steady or normal. Something like that. And as heart and lungs are closely connected you might expect increased breathing if the heart speeds up. But that's about the only connection I can think someone made.I'm kind of assuming he made his choice, lent back, closed his eyes, and relaxed. Detach from reality and just let things happen as they will.
kapiteinlangzaam said:
Someones lost something in translation somewhere.
In the reports I have read it was talking about audible breaths, nothing to do with pulse rate.
That might have been my mis-memory of it. But I did see an article saying that 'because he was breathing it meant he wasn't unconscious'... der...In the reports I have read it was talking about audible breaths, nothing to do with pulse rate.
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