Early Gloster Meteor vs ME262
Discussion
aeropilot said:
Nope, in that hypothetical situation tested by the RAF back then, the F1A Lightning then in service at that time, only had Firestreak and a pair of 30mm Adens in the nose, and the Firestreak tech of the day wouldn't have really worked against the Spitfire which was substituting for the P-51 scenario, so the Lightning would have had only had to resort to using a guns attack, hence it's pilots would have had to pretty much using the same slash and dash technique employed by the Luftwaffe Me262 pilots 20 years earlier... 
What a lot of people forget is that the cannon armament of post war jet fighters compare very well with a WWII. The two ADEN cannons on a Lightning could put out 3400 rounds per minute which is only slightly less than rate of fire the P51 can manage with 6 M2 machine guns.
The 30mm cannon round will however blow a WWII fighter out of the sky with a single hit.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoLLDi-M3fk
Also the post war fighters have a radar ranged lead correcting gun sight and guns concentrated in the nose.
Talksteer said:
The two ADEN cannons on a Lightning could put out 3400 rounds per minute which is only slightly less than rate of fire the P51 can manage with 6 M2 machine guns.
Almost.Rate of fire of the Aden was 1200/1400 rds per min.
And given that each Adenin a F.1A only had 120 rds that's 6 secs worth of ammo, compared to 30 secs worth of .50 cal ammo that a P-51 had.
And it would need a couple of those .50 cal rounds to do the job....
V8 Fettler said:
If the P51 was used in a ground attack role then I doubt if the RAF would risk the Lightning at low level. General destruction of the enemy's airbases would have been a better option.
They had every intention of doing so. Had the Valiant tanker force not had been prematurely withdrawn it's very likely that Lightning's would have been deployed earlier, but with no real way of trailing a Lightning deployment at the time, it didn't happen. They would have also have had to send out one of the F.2 sqns that was earmarked for RAFG deployment or 56 or 111 that still had the F.1A and delayed conversion to F.3 which had no guns.What airbases to destroy..?
IIRC, the Indonesians were deploying P-51's using old WW2 Jap/US airstrips scattered around the area. You are thinking far too modern in all of this, rather than 'of the time'.
There is anecdotal heresay stories of a RN Bucc S.1 pilot having a P-51 flash past across below him (some feat given the average altitude flown by Buccs!!) and thinking nothing of it until landing back on the RN carrier to have a couple of holes in his fin pointed out to him.
Also, an old RN Sea Vixen pilot has written the following of his time on deployment in the Far East at the time.
In '64 I was on a Vixen squadron on HMS Centaur during confrontation and we were briefed by the squadron AWI on how to shoot down an Indon. P51 with 2 inch rockets. It required the P51 to fly straight and level while the looker (me) consulted the tables to work out the gravity-drop/range etc. This produced a hilarious reaction, and the best option seemed to be to overtake the P51 and jettison the droptanks on top of him!
Of course several years before our "experts/leaders" had decided that a gun was not really necessary in a fighter any more!!! I'd rather have one engine and two guns than two engines and no guns!
I then went on to the Lightning F3!!!
For terminology, airbase can = airstrip.
If the P51 was used in a ground attack role, I don't see any scenario where the RAF would risk a high value Lightning at such a low level. Wasn't the preferred method of attack by Lightning to approach the P51 from behind and below? An alternative would be to destroy the P51s on the ground.
If the P51 was used in a ground attack role, I don't see any scenario where the RAF would risk a high value Lightning at such a low level. Wasn't the preferred method of attack by Lightning to approach the P51 from behind and below? An alternative would be to destroy the P51s on the ground.
V8 Fettler said:
I don't see any scenario where the RAF would risk a high value Lightning at such a low level.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that it was indeed a serious proposal by RAF/MOD at the time, had the circumstances of the time escalated beyond what they did.I'm sure those that were there at the time, would be delighted to have had the benefit of your undoubted greater knowledge based on 50+ years of hindsight to argue against the idea....
aeropilot said:
V8 Fettler said:
I don't see any scenario where the RAF would risk a high value Lightning at such a low level.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that it was indeed a serious proposal by RAF/MOD at the time, had the circumstances of the time escalated beyond what they did.I'm sure those that were there at the time, would be delighted to have had the benefit of your undoubted greater knowledge based on 50+ years of hindsight to argue against the idea....
I won't respond to your attempt at sarcasm except to ask: am I not entitled to an opinion?
V8 Fettler said:
Perhaps the concept of using Buccaneers in a ground attack role was too advanced for 1964, which wouldn't leave many options.
Err......I guess couldn't be bothered to read one of my earlier posts from today then...... V8 Fettler said:
I won't respond to your attempt at sarcasm except to ask: am I not entitled to an opinion?
To be frank, no. You weren't there at the time, so any hypothetical 'opinion' you have 50+ years after the events of the time are frankly, pointless. Clearly, though, that's a concept you are still struggling with, and I'm struggling to understand why that is, hence my sarcastic frustration.
aeropilot said:
V8 Fettler said:
Perhaps the concept of using Buccaneers in a ground attack role was too advanced for 1964, which wouldn't leave many options.
Err......I guess couldn't be bothered to read one of my earlier posts from today then...... V8 Fettler said:
I won't respond to your attempt at sarcasm except to ask: am I not entitled to an opinion?
To be frank, no. You weren't there at the time, so any hypothetical 'opinion' you have 50+ years after the events of the time are frankly, pointless. Clearly, though, that's a concept you are still struggling with, and I'm struggling to understand why that is, hence my sarcastic frustration.
P51 chasing a Buccaneer at low level, 150 knots speed differential perhaps?
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