Lancaster fire

Author
Discussion

Lincsblokey

3,175 posts

155 months

Wednesday 20th May 2015
quotequote all
The parts went yesterday, not today.

Unfortunately the engine isnt really the big issue, they have spares (2, with 3rd 'vera' engine being checked over) its the bearer, which was twisted by the heat to an extent where it has been sent away for copying, also the nacelles and other parts were damaged quite badly.

Some very reliable folk have said they dont think she will fly again this year.

Squawk1066

2,941 posts

171 months

Wednesday 20th May 2015
quotequote all
Thanks.

Time do dust off the one from Hendon then. biggrin

ecsrobin

17,118 posts

165 months

Wednesday 20th May 2015
quotequote all
Lincsblokey said:
The parts went yesterday, not today.

Unfortunately the engine isnt really the big issue, they have spares (2, with 3rd 'vera' engine being checked over) its the bearer, which was twisted by the heat to an extent where it has been sent away for copying, also the nacelles and other parts were damaged quite badly.

Some very reliable folk have said they dont think she will fly again this year.
I think they'll get a ferry flight in by the end of the year for its servicing. But I don't think we'll be seeing it displaying any time soon if at all this season.

jamieduff1981

8,025 posts

140 months

Thursday 21st May 2015
quotequote all
Ledaig said:
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
Three engine ferry take off?

Re-arrange this well worn phrase: 'Off, F***!'

Three engine ferry take offs have a very nasty habit of killing people!

They are so dangerous that, on Albert, we required 38 Group Authority to do it and even then the Captain had the right of refusal.
I'll take that as a no then rolleyes
The de Havilland Dash-7 could/did do it without drama. Its low speed control authority was rather exceptional though as was its power to weight ratio when close to empty.

There was an ex-Herc pilot working for Brymon who loved the Dash 7. I had a couple of jump seat flights with him.

Dr Jekyll

23,820 posts

261 months

Thursday 21st May 2015
quotequote all
What is the ultimate limiting factor for how long a Lancaster can be kept flying? All parts can in principle be remanufactured but possibly there are intellectual property issues with some. Will AVGAS become unavailable?

Eric Mc

122,029 posts

265 months

Thursday 21st May 2015
quotequote all
They've been warning about the imminent demise of aviation petrol since the mid 1970s.

aeropilot

34,584 posts

227 months

Thursday 21st May 2015
quotequote all
Dr Jekyll said:
What is the ultimate limiting factor for how long a Lancaster can be kept flying? All parts can in principle be remanufactured but possibly there are intellectual property issues with some. Will AVGAS become unavailable?
Yup, very likely it will be either the MOD pulling the financial plug on the BBMF (a possibility once the 'last' WW2 veteran has departed within a decade or so) or the lack of 100LL, which as Eric has said has been talked about for quite a while. It is getting harder to get, especially now the enviromentalists have put pressure on the GA world to stop using it in newer gen stuff.
There is very real concern in the USA warbird community as to just how long some fuel companies will continue to produce it.

ChemicalChaos

10,393 posts

160 months

Thursday 21st May 2015
quotequote all
aeropilot said:
Dr Jekyll said:
What is the ultimate limiting factor for how long a Lancaster can be kept flying? All parts can in principle be remanufactured but possibly there are intellectual property issues with some. Will AVGAS become unavailable?
Yup, very likely it will be either the MOD pulling the financial plug on the BBMF (a possibility once the 'last' WW2 veteran has departed within a decade or so) or the lack of 100LL, which as Eric has said has been talked about for quite a while. It is getting harder to get, especially now the enviromentalists have put pressure on the GA world to stop using it in newer gen stuff.
There is very real concern in the USA warbird community as to just how long some fuel companies will continue to produce it.
What is special about it compared to normal avgas? Can an octane-boosting lead additive not be put in like in classic car fuel?

aeropilot

34,584 posts

227 months

Thursday 21st May 2015
quotequote all
ChemicalChaos said:
aeropilot said:
Dr Jekyll said:
What is the ultimate limiting factor for how long a Lancaster can be kept flying? All parts can in principle be remanufactured but possibly there are intellectual property issues with some. Will AVGAS become unavailable?
Yup, very likely it will be either the MOD pulling the financial plug on the BBMF (a possibility once the 'last' WW2 veteran has departed within a decade or so) or the lack of 100LL, which as Eric has said has been talked about for quite a while. It is getting harder to get, especially now the enviromentalists have put pressure on the GA world to stop using it in newer gen stuff.
There is very real concern in the USA warbird community as to just how long some fuel companies will continue to produce it.
What is special about it compared to normal avgas? Can an octane-boosting lead additive not be put in like in classic car fuel?
The special stuff is the 'normal' 100 (or 100/130 in old terminology) but I don't know if that's still generally available here in the UK....?
100LL is the low lead version of the 100 (but it's still quite high in TEL compared to old leaded 4-star etc!)
There's a newer unleaded, lower octane AVGAS for the newer gen GA engines, which won't be any good for a 'big piston'.

richw_82

992 posts

186 months

Friday 22nd May 2015
quotequote all
One of the major fuel companies has been doing development work to make a variant of lead free fuel which works with older large piston engines. Last I heard they were achieving performances similar to 100LL; we offered to let them use our Shackleton as a test bed in exchange for free fuel.

Mutley

3,178 posts

259 months

Friday 22nd May 2015
quotequote all
ecsrobin said:
Lincsblokey said:
The parts went yesterday, not today.

Unfortunately the engine isnt really the big issue, they have spares (2, with 3rd 'vera' engine being checked over) its the bearer, which was twisted by the heat to an extent where it has been sent away for copying, also the nacelles and other parts were damaged quite badly.

Some very reliable folk have said they dont think she will fly again this year.
I think they'll get a ferry flight in by the end of the year for its servicing. But I don't think we'll be seeing it displaying any time soon if at all this season.
That will be a shame, but, the safety of the aeroplane and aircrew come first, so cannot be rushed.

Am I correct in remembering something said last year, that PA474 was due for a major service next year, with a spar relacement, so wouldn't be shown in 2016. How does a grounding affect that? could it be moved forward?

aeropilot

34,584 posts

227 months

Friday 22nd May 2015
quotequote all
Mutley said:
Am I correct in remembering something said last year, that PA474 was due for a major service next year, with a spar relacement, so wouldn't be shown in 2016. How does a grounding affect that? could it be moved forward?
Yes.

Not main spar replacement (that was done back in the mid 90's) it's work needing on the tailplane plus a major IIRC. Was due to go to Duxford to be done at end of this season IIRC.
I think the logistics of bring this forward are being looked at as an option, but, as already mentioned, it would require full break down for road transport to Duxford, or the Duxford team having to travel to do the work in-situ at BBMF, plus presumably, the staff that were scheduled to do it are currently on other projects, and thus probably not 'free' until the scheduled timeframe.

FourWheelDrift

88,512 posts

284 months

Friday 22nd May 2015
quotequote all
They could ”fly” it down to Duxford.



PS that above set a weight and distance record for a Chinook load at the time.

richw_82

992 posts

186 months

Friday 22nd May 2015
quotequote all
It also had the restoration team having kittens as she nearly got dropped. The first attempt to lift her didn't work.

Mutley

3,178 posts

259 months

Friday 22nd May 2015
quotequote all
aeropilot said:
Mutley said:
Am I correct in remembering something said last year, that PA474 was due for a major service next year, with a spar relacement, so wouldn't be shown in 2016. How does a grounding affect that? could it be moved forward?
Yes.

Not main spar replacement (that was done back in the mid 90's) it's work needing on the tailplane plus a major IIRC. Was due to go to Duxford to be done at end of this season IIRC.
I think the logistics of bring this forward are being looked at as an option, but, as already mentioned, it would require full break down for road transport to Duxford, or the Duxford team having to travel to do the work in-situ at BBMF, plus presumably, the staff that were scheduled to do it are currently on other projects, and thus probably not 'free' until the scheduled timeframe.
Thanks, a 3 engined transfer isn't an option, nor I feel disassembly. Seems to be a long delay until she is airbourne again. Worth the wait though.

Squawk1066

2,941 posts

171 months

Saturday 23rd May 2015
quotequote all
Update from the BBMF. Looks like good news to me. (Post is copied from their Facebook page, it doesn't link the photos)


Lanc Update

Here are a few pictures showing that all the damaged items have now been removed from the aircraft by our engineers. The investigation is still on going in to the cause but I can tell you that there is no damage to the wing as the fire bulkhead did its job. The main items engine panels and engine bearer are now with various companies for assessment, repair or new manufacture. No time scale as yet but we are hopeful she will fly again this year. Paul B

Edit, link here:
https://www.facebook.com/BBMF.Official/posts/83127...


Edited by Squawk1066 on Saturday 23 May 12:58

Ayahuasca

27,427 posts

279 months

Saturday 23rd May 2015
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
G15 has a way with words.
I am not being a white knight or anything, G15 is perfectly capable of defending herself, but do people need to attack her quite so much? She has a direct, often italicised, often abbreviated style, but she also has experience of flying a four engined propeller driven military aircraft so can offer a unique (for PH) insight into the question posed.

She could have said 'three engined flight would not be a wise choice' but how bland and uninteresting would that have been?


Mojocvh

16,837 posts

262 months

Saturday 23rd May 2015
quotequote all
ChemicalChaos said:
aeropilot said:
Dr Jekyll said:
What is the ultimate limiting factor for how long a Lancaster can be kept flying? All parts can in principle be remanufactured but possibly there are intellectual property issues with some. Will AVGAS become unavailable?
Yup, very likely it will be either the MOD pulling the financial plug on the BBMF (a possibility once the 'last' WW2 veteran has departed within a decade or so) or the lack of 100LL, which as Eric has said has been talked about for quite a while. It is getting harder to get, especially now the enviromentalists have put pressure on the GA world to stop using it in newer gen stuff.
There is very real concern in the USA warbird community as to just how long some fuel companies will continue to produce it.
What is special about it compared to normal avgas? Can an octane-boosting lead additive not be put in like in classic car fuel?
Ran the Mo on a combination of Shells finest and Tetraboost, up to [by mixture/molar weights mind] around about 102-104.

The real problem would be getting it authorised/certified for that use by the campaign against aviation.

Edited after checking mixture figures again..pretty sure I tried it higher but it just ran hotter for no effect, the Mo has a 20l tank so you can faff about a bit...




Edited by Mojocvh on Saturday 23 May 15:02

Eric Mc

122,029 posts

265 months

Saturday 23rd May 2015
quotequote all
Ayahuasca said:
Eric Mc said:
G15 has a way with words.
I am not being a white knight or anything, G15 is perfectly capable of defending herself, but do people need to attack her quite so much? She has a direct, often italicised, often abbreviated style, but she also has experience of flying a four engined propeller driven military aircraft so can offer a unique (for PH) insight into the question posed.

She could have said 'three engined flight would not be a wise choice' but how bland and uninteresting would that have been?
I'm not saying any more about it.

Lincsblokey

3,175 posts

155 months

Saturday 23rd May 2015
quotequote all
Mojocvh said:
ChemicalChaos said:
aeropilot said:
Dr Jekyll said:
What is the ultimate limiting factor for how long a Lancaster can be kept flying? All parts can in principle be remanufactured but possibly there are intellectual property issues with some. Will AVGAS become unavailable?
Yup, very likely it will be either the MOD pulling the financial plug on the BBMF (a possibility once the 'last' WW2 veteran has departed within a decade or so) or the lack of 100LL, which as Eric has said has been talked about for quite a while. It is getting harder to get, especially now the enviromentalists have put pressure on the GA world to stop using it in newer gen stuff.
There is very real concern in the USA warbird community as to just how long some fuel companies will continue to produce it.
What is special about it compared to normal avgas? Can an octane-boosting lead additive not be put in like in classic car fuel?
Ran the Mo on a combination of Shells finest and Tetraboost, up to [by mixture/molar weights mind] around about 102-104.

The real problem would be getting it authorised/certified for that use by the campaign against aviation.

Edited after checking mixture figures again..pretty sure I tried it higher but it just ran hotter for no effect, the Mo has a 20l tank so you can faff about a bit...




Edited by Mojocvh on Saturday 23 May 15:02
Speaking to Craig (FltENG) From Vera's crew shortly after landing, it seems their motors have been adapted for what he called 'clean burn' and they also use 20% of the oil Thumper does.

So it can be done, As you say its if our authoritys say yes or not.