Gnat Crash At Carfest
Discussion
converted lurker said:
ecsrobin said:
I feel like we maybe giving you a hard time PS, what is your military flying background?
PERSEC suggests it unwise to disclose that to you. You seem focussed on trying to work out who I am and that could be sinister.Nobody really cares who you are - I think people would be interested to know what your experience is given your 'I have an answer for everything' replies.
Edited by fatboy69 on Tuesday 4th August 10:18
I fly a 75 year old aircraft: rebuilt 3 times due to ground accidents. Power is nominal. In any manoeuvre other than straight and level the stall speed naturally comes creeping up. Landing in x winds is hard work. But then all of what I just wrote could equally apply to a Cessna 152. Every aircraft has it's characteristics. Step outside of them and physics knocks on the door. CL has a series of opinions largely unaffected by whatever evidence is presented to him/her. The tag amateur to any display pilot is also highly disrespectful as the rating is hard won and kept. 10 years flying on a Gnat doesn't happen by chance. Mr Whyman had skill and until we know the facts I am at a loss how CL can be disrespectful to Mr Whyman and opiniate in the manner that he has.
Dr Jekyll said:
Didn't realize it was inverted then managed up right itself before flipping again. RIP
fatboy69 said:
converted lurker said:
Why is it disrespectful to consider Gnat display flying by amateurs as potentially too hazardous to be permitted? Many people said so years before the practice killed this fine man in this tragic accident. Thank god it didn't wipe out innocents on the ground.
That type of display in those type of aircraft using that type of pilot was not wise, I said it, others said it and now there's a smoking hole in the ground and a weeping widow to prove it. I'm damned if aviation safety is enhanced by people wishing to close off criticism on the grounds of faux grief at the death of strangers.
So an ex RAF pilot is an amateur????That type of display in those type of aircraft using that type of pilot was not wise, I said it, others said it and now there's a smoking hole in the ground and a weeping widow to prove it. I'm damned if aviation safety is enhanced by people wishing to close off criticism on the grounds of faux grief at the death of strangers.
fatboy69 said:
He had been flying the Gnat for over 10 years so I would like to think he knew what he was doing. How do you know that a mechanical failure didn't cause the crash rather than, as you seem to be suggesting, a pilot flying an unsuitable aircraft was responsible.
True, and we’ll have to wait a while for the AAIB report, but statistically, it’s an inescapable fact that almost every crash/incident involving a civvie operated ex-mil jet in the past couple of decades has been down to ‘pilot error’, so yes, he had been flying the pocket rocket for 10 years, but many that are older and more experienced have equally come a cropper through no fault on the jet they were flying at the time. AAIB will confirm or deny and until then it’s all speculation, but this is an internet discussion forum, and I don’t see any rules that say ‘speculation’ about any particular subject is banned? Converted lurker is entitled to his opinion as much as you are – whether you agree or not – surely?Edited by aeropilot on Tuesday 4th August 11:14
CL has a series of opinions largely unaffected by whatever evidence is presented to him/her. The tag amateur to any display pilot is also highly disrespectful as the rating is hard won and kept. 10 years flying on a Gnat doesn't happen by chance. Mr Whyman had skill and until we know the facts I am at a loss how CL can be disrespectful to Mr Whyman and opiniate in the manner that he has.
[/quote]
This is what I was getting at in my earlier post - just written more elloquently.
My Whyman had many many hours on Gnats & he would have been well aware of what he could & couldn't do with the aircraft & I very much doubt that he would have got into the Gnat if he was scared or worried by it.
Likewise he would not have agreed to display the aircraft at a public event had he thought that it might crash & hurt people.
Also would not the CAA have grounded the Gnat if they were concerned over to safety?
I also think that CL is being extremely dis-respectful both to Mr Whyman & the many other display pilots who give us the excitement of seeing these aircraft in the sky.
Lets be honest here - even current airforce pilots can have accidents - as was the case with the Russian helicopter pilot who, sadly, lost his life over the weekend.
[/quote]
This is what I was getting at in my earlier post - just written more elloquently.
My Whyman had many many hours on Gnats & he would have been well aware of what he could & couldn't do with the aircraft & I very much doubt that he would have got into the Gnat if he was scared or worried by it.
Likewise he would not have agreed to display the aircraft at a public event had he thought that it might crash & hurt people.
Also would not the CAA have grounded the Gnat if they were concerned over to safety?
I also think that CL is being extremely dis-respectful both to Mr Whyman & the many other display pilots who give us the excitement of seeing these aircraft in the sky.
Lets be honest here - even current airforce pilots can have accidents - as was the case with the Russian helicopter pilot who, sadly, lost his life over the weekend.
Eric Mc said:
How many have we got flying in the UK - two now?
There's two currently, but there will be three next year. Another former Red Arrows Gnat is joining the team, and they hoping to have a four ship Gnat display team, which obviously won't happen now.I personally enjoy the Gnat's, cool looking plane.
I love the Gnat. I'm very happy to see them flying these days. I'm very saddened that Mr Whyman lost his life flying the aeroplane I so enjoy watching. It's pretty much a two-way street. He wouldn't have flown one if he didn't love it, and it wouldn't get a display slot if it were hugely unpopular with punters.
The Gnat was the Red Arrows' display aircraft when, as a child, I first saw them display at a St Athan 'At Home Day'. It was the very first model aeroplane that I built. I have no real idea how easy or difficult it is to fly one (I failed the army medical for aircrew), or how it compares with other aircraft, either it's contemporaries, or modern jets.
But jet aircraft are part of our history. It's great to see the piston engined warbirds, yes, but we already know that we'll never be treated to another display by the likes of the Buccaneers, Phantoms, Lightnings etc that are already retired, and the really complex stuff has no chance of taking to the skies again, stuff like Jaguar, Harrier and Tornado. It will be a sad day indeed if the CAA were to blanket-ban all ex military jets from operation and display in private hands.
I live near Farnborough. Between the Blackbushe and TAG runways in fact. Aviation, and the sight and sound of aircraft operations are a constant presence in my life. In certain operating conditions, Heathrow traffic holds out this way, and every two years we get a big week long air display for free. The Red Arrows (or some of them at least) fly directly over my house during the "off camera" formation shuffling they do when they split for the individual/pairs section of the display. I worry that one day something will crash nearby. Stuff has crashed in the past, and sadly it's almost certain that stuff will crash in the future. But I still look forward to the Farnborough display, and I am grateful that, despite the inherent risks, the likes of Kevin Whyman and the team behind him are willing to maintain and display these beautiful old aircraft for our mutual pleasure.
I have no insight into the circumstances of the sad loss of Kevin Whyman and the Gnat at Carfest, so I have nothing helpful to add to the discussion. Suffice to say that two cyclists died at the weekend, one from a medical incident, the other in a 'single vehicle accident'. Also very recently, a former soldier crashed his mountain bike into a tree in Swinley Forest. Totally out of scale with the damage an aircraft can inflict, yes, but a cluster of deaths in a short period all the same. Yet no sensible person is clamouring for cycling, or even 'certain kinds of bicycle' to be banned. "Won't somebody think of the children?" Well they already have, and the consensus is that the kiddies love foreign holidays too, so, like the humble bicycle, aviation is here to stay whether you like it or not. One crash does not a 'dangerous aeroplane' make.
The Gnat was the Red Arrows' display aircraft when, as a child, I first saw them display at a St Athan 'At Home Day'. It was the very first model aeroplane that I built. I have no real idea how easy or difficult it is to fly one (I failed the army medical for aircrew), or how it compares with other aircraft, either it's contemporaries, or modern jets.
But jet aircraft are part of our history. It's great to see the piston engined warbirds, yes, but we already know that we'll never be treated to another display by the likes of the Buccaneers, Phantoms, Lightnings etc that are already retired, and the really complex stuff has no chance of taking to the skies again, stuff like Jaguar, Harrier and Tornado. It will be a sad day indeed if the CAA were to blanket-ban all ex military jets from operation and display in private hands.
I live near Farnborough. Between the Blackbushe and TAG runways in fact. Aviation, and the sight and sound of aircraft operations are a constant presence in my life. In certain operating conditions, Heathrow traffic holds out this way, and every two years we get a big week long air display for free. The Red Arrows (or some of them at least) fly directly over my house during the "off camera" formation shuffling they do when they split for the individual/pairs section of the display. I worry that one day something will crash nearby. Stuff has crashed in the past, and sadly it's almost certain that stuff will crash in the future. But I still look forward to the Farnborough display, and I am grateful that, despite the inherent risks, the likes of Kevin Whyman and the team behind him are willing to maintain and display these beautiful old aircraft for our mutual pleasure.
I have no insight into the circumstances of the sad loss of Kevin Whyman and the Gnat at Carfest, so I have nothing helpful to add to the discussion. Suffice to say that two cyclists died at the weekend, one from a medical incident, the other in a 'single vehicle accident'. Also very recently, a former soldier crashed his mountain bike into a tree in Swinley Forest. Totally out of scale with the damage an aircraft can inflict, yes, but a cluster of deaths in a short period all the same. Yet no sensible person is clamouring for cycling, or even 'certain kinds of bicycle' to be banned. "Won't somebody think of the children?" Well they already have, and the consensus is that the kiddies love foreign holidays too, so, like the humble bicycle, aviation is here to stay whether you like it or not. One crash does not a 'dangerous aeroplane' make.
yellowjack said:
I love the Gnat. I'm very happy to see them flying these days. I'm very saddened that Mr Whyman lost his life flying the aeroplane I so enjoy watching. It's pretty much a two-way street. He wouldn't have flown one if he didn't love it, and it wouldn't get a display slot if it were hugely unpopular with punters.
The Gnat was the Red Arrows' display aircraft when, as a child, I first saw them display at a St Athan 'At Home Day'. It was the very first model aeroplane that I built. I have no real idea how easy or difficult it is to fly one (I failed the army medical for aircrew), or how it compares with other aircraft, either it's contemporaries, or modern jets.
But jet aircraft are part of our history. It's great to see the piston engined warbirds, yes, but we already know that we'll never be treated to another display by the likes of the Buccaneers, Phantoms, Lightnings etc that are already retired, and the really complex stuff has no chance of taking to the skies again, stuff like Jaguar, Harrier and Tornado. It will be a sad day indeed if the CAA were to blanket-ban all ex military jets from operation and display in private hands.
I live near Farnborough. Between the Blackbushe and TAG runways in fact. Aviation, and the sight and sound of aircraft operations are a constant presence in my life. In certain operating conditions, Heathrow traffic holds out this way, and every two years we get a big week long air display for free. The Red Arrows (or some of them at least) fly directly over my house during the "off camera" formation shuffling they do when they split for the individual/pairs section of the display. I worry that one day something will crash nearby. Stuff has crashed in the past, and sadly it's almost certain that stuff will crash in the future. But I still look forward to the Farnborough display, and I am grateful that, despite the inherent risks, the likes of Kevin Whyman and the team behind him are willing to maintain and display these beautiful old aircraft for our mutual pleasure.
I have no insight into the circumstances of the sad loss of Kevin Whyman and the Gnat at Carfest, so I have nothing helpful to add to the discussion. Suffice to say that two cyclists died at the weekend, one from a medical incident, the other in a 'single vehicle accident'. Also very recently, a former soldier crashed his mountain bike into a tree in Swinley Forest. Totally out of scale with the damage an aircraft can inflict, yes, but a cluster of deaths in a short period all the same. Yet no sensible person is clamouring for cycling, or even 'certain kinds of bicycle' to be banned. "Won't somebody think of the children?" Well they already have, and the consensus is that the kiddies love foreign holidays too, so, like the humble bicycle, aviation is here to stay whether you like it or not. One crash does not a 'dangerous aeroplane' make.
Well said sir. The Gnat was the Red Arrows' display aircraft when, as a child, I first saw them display at a St Athan 'At Home Day'. It was the very first model aeroplane that I built. I have no real idea how easy or difficult it is to fly one (I failed the army medical for aircrew), or how it compares with other aircraft, either it's contemporaries, or modern jets.
But jet aircraft are part of our history. It's great to see the piston engined warbirds, yes, but we already know that we'll never be treated to another display by the likes of the Buccaneers, Phantoms, Lightnings etc that are already retired, and the really complex stuff has no chance of taking to the skies again, stuff like Jaguar, Harrier and Tornado. It will be a sad day indeed if the CAA were to blanket-ban all ex military jets from operation and display in private hands.
I live near Farnborough. Between the Blackbushe and TAG runways in fact. Aviation, and the sight and sound of aircraft operations are a constant presence in my life. In certain operating conditions, Heathrow traffic holds out this way, and every two years we get a big week long air display for free. The Red Arrows (or some of them at least) fly directly over my house during the "off camera" formation shuffling they do when they split for the individual/pairs section of the display. I worry that one day something will crash nearby. Stuff has crashed in the past, and sadly it's almost certain that stuff will crash in the future. But I still look forward to the Farnborough display, and I am grateful that, despite the inherent risks, the likes of Kevin Whyman and the team behind him are willing to maintain and display these beautiful old aircraft for our mutual pleasure.
I have no insight into the circumstances of the sad loss of Kevin Whyman and the Gnat at Carfest, so I have nothing helpful to add to the discussion. Suffice to say that two cyclists died at the weekend, one from a medical incident, the other in a 'single vehicle accident'. Also very recently, a former soldier crashed his mountain bike into a tree in Swinley Forest. Totally out of scale with the damage an aircraft can inflict, yes, but a cluster of deaths in a short period all the same. Yet no sensible person is clamouring for cycling, or even 'certain kinds of bicycle' to be banned. "Won't somebody think of the children?" Well they already have, and the consensus is that the kiddies love foreign holidays too, so, like the humble bicycle, aviation is here to stay whether you like it or not. One crash does not a 'dangerous aeroplane' make.
ecsrobin said:
yellowjack said:
I love the Gnat. I'm very happy to see them flying these days. I'm very saddened that Mr Whyman lost his life flying the aeroplane I so enjoy watching. It's pretty much a two-way street. He wouldn't have flown one if he didn't love it, and it wouldn't get a display slot if it were hugely unpopular with punters.
The Gnat was the Red Arrows' display aircraft when, as a child, I first saw them display at a St Athan 'At Home Day'. It was the very first model aeroplane that I built. I have no real idea how easy or difficult it is to fly one (I failed the army medical for aircrew), or how it compares with other aircraft, either it's contemporaries, or modern jets.
But jet aircraft are part of our history. It's great to see the piston engined warbirds, yes, but we already know that we'll never be treated to another display by the likes of the Buccaneers, Phantoms, Lightnings etc that are already retired, and the really complex stuff has no chance of taking to the skies again, stuff like Jaguar, Harrier and Tornado. It will be a sad day indeed if the CAA were to blanket-ban all ex military jets from operation and display in private hands.
I live near Farnborough. Between the Blackbushe and TAG runways in fact. Aviation, and the sight and sound of aircraft operations are a constant presence in my life. In certain operating conditions, Heathrow traffic holds out this way, and every two years we get a big week long air display for free. The Red Arrows (or some of them at least) fly directly over my house during the "off camera" formation shuffling they do when they split for the individual/pairs section of the display. I worry that one day something will crash nearby. Stuff has crashed in the past, and sadly it's almost certain that stuff will crash in the future. But I still look forward to the Farnborough display, and I am grateful that, despite the inherent risks, the likes of Kevin Whyman and the team behind him are willing to maintain and display these beautiful old aircraft for our mutual pleasure.
I have no insight into the circumstances of the sad loss of Kevin Whyman and the Gnat at Carfest, so I have nothing helpful to add to the discussion. Suffice to say that two cyclists died at the weekend, one from a medical incident, the other in a 'single vehicle accident'. Also very recently, a former soldier crashed his mountain bike into a tree in Swinley Forest. Totally out of scale with the damage an aircraft can inflict, yes, but a cluster of deaths in a short period all the same. Yet no sensible person is clamouring for cycling, or even 'certain kinds of bicycle' to be banned. "Won't somebody think of the children?" Well they already have, and the consensus is that the kiddies love foreign holidays too, so, like the humble bicycle, aviation is here to stay whether you like it or not. One crash does not a 'dangerous aeroplane' make.
Well said sir. The Gnat was the Red Arrows' display aircraft when, as a child, I first saw them display at a St Athan 'At Home Day'. It was the very first model aeroplane that I built. I have no real idea how easy or difficult it is to fly one (I failed the army medical for aircrew), or how it compares with other aircraft, either it's contemporaries, or modern jets.
But jet aircraft are part of our history. It's great to see the piston engined warbirds, yes, but we already know that we'll never be treated to another display by the likes of the Buccaneers, Phantoms, Lightnings etc that are already retired, and the really complex stuff has no chance of taking to the skies again, stuff like Jaguar, Harrier and Tornado. It will be a sad day indeed if the CAA were to blanket-ban all ex military jets from operation and display in private hands.
I live near Farnborough. Between the Blackbushe and TAG runways in fact. Aviation, and the sight and sound of aircraft operations are a constant presence in my life. In certain operating conditions, Heathrow traffic holds out this way, and every two years we get a big week long air display for free. The Red Arrows (or some of them at least) fly directly over my house during the "off camera" formation shuffling they do when they split for the individual/pairs section of the display. I worry that one day something will crash nearby. Stuff has crashed in the past, and sadly it's almost certain that stuff will crash in the future. But I still look forward to the Farnborough display, and I am grateful that, despite the inherent risks, the likes of Kevin Whyman and the team behind him are willing to maintain and display these beautiful old aircraft for our mutual pleasure.
I have no insight into the circumstances of the sad loss of Kevin Whyman and the Gnat at Carfest, so I have nothing helpful to add to the discussion. Suffice to say that two cyclists died at the weekend, one from a medical incident, the other in a 'single vehicle accident'. Also very recently, a former soldier crashed his mountain bike into a tree in Swinley Forest. Totally out of scale with the damage an aircraft can inflict, yes, but a cluster of deaths in a short period all the same. Yet no sensible person is clamouring for cycling, or even 'certain kinds of bicycle' to be banned. "Won't somebody think of the children?" Well they already have, and the consensus is that the kiddies love foreign holidays too, so, like the humble bicycle, aviation is here to stay whether you like it or not. One crash does not a 'dangerous aeroplane' make.
If you crash your bicycle you kill yourself. If you hurl a fast jet into the ground you also kill yourself AND anybody who was innocently going about their business. Hence there is a higher degree of safety regulation incumbent on fSt jet display flying than cycling. The two are not remotely comparable.
The seats were live that is confirmed, an old Saab design still supported, a shame that was not successfully utilised here.
There is a old joke: How do you get yourself a Starfighter? A: Buy a field in Germany and wait.
A contemporary variant of that joke used to do the rounds about the Gnat and buying a field in Wales.
When I've seen the Gnat display it has made me nervous. Ray Hanna declined to go for a jolly in one and I think that said. Lot. At the end of the day we have the fact that either pilot error or the fragility of the aircraft caused this display aircraft to depart controlled flight and fatally crash. Them's the facts and whichever the cause turns out to be it doesn't really change my OPINION that the displaying of the Gnat privately in the 2010's was cumulatively too risky.
The AAIB of course will give us the FACTS. I will resurrect this thread when the report is published and we will see whose opinion was right.
The seats were live that is confirmed, an old Saab design still supported, a shame that was not successfully utilised here.
There is a old joke: How do you get yourself a Starfighter? A: Buy a field in Germany and wait.
A contemporary variant of that joke used to do the rounds about the Gnat and buying a field in Wales.
When I've seen the Gnat display it has made me nervous. Ray Hanna declined to go for a jolly in one and I think that said. Lot. At the end of the day we have the fact that either pilot error or the fragility of the aircraft caused this display aircraft to depart controlled flight and fatally crash. Them's the facts and whichever the cause turns out to be it doesn't really change my OPINION that the displaying of the Gnat privately in the 2010's was cumulatively too risky.
The AAIB of course will give us the FACTS. I will resurrect this thread when the report is published and we will see whose opinion was right.
fatboy69 said:
I don't think that is the case. You don't have to be exact - just a general answer would be good.
Nobody really cares who you are - I think people would be interested to know what your experience is given your 'I have an answer for everything' replies.
>20,000hrs, flown Hawks, displayed aircraft, instructor, airline captain, trainer, AAIB approved unit flight safety officer, gliding champion, aircraft owner, Duke of Edinburgh Gold holder. Nobody really cares who you are - I think people would be interested to know what your experience is given your 'I have an answer for everything' replies.
Edited by fatboy69 on Tuesday 4th August 10:18
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