Gnat Crash At Carfest
Discussion
I have always had misgivings about displaying the Gnat. In many ways a superb display aircraft it does have its challenges. Given its fifty year old design, the lack of experience and recency of some of its pilots and its high performance capability this was one of the more likely accidents to happen.
Had it wiped out a few people on the ground then I suspect that would be an end to ex-military fast jet display flying in the UK.
The Gnats do not fly with an ejection system because it costs too much money to service and certify in civilian operation.
Had it wiped out a few people on the ground then I suspect that would be an end to ex-military fast jet display flying in the UK.
The Gnats do not fly with an ejection system because it costs too much money to service and certify in civilian operation.
From BBC website:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-33...
Aviation expert Julian Bray : "They had great ideas for these little aircraft but they didn't quite make it. The RAF did use them for training purposes but never for display purposes. They went with another variant. They sold theirs on, mainly.
What was the difference in variant between the RAF trainer and the one the Red Arrows used? I can see the additional fuel tanks, but I assumed they were still the same variant for both?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-33...
Aviation expert Julian Bray : "They had great ideas for these little aircraft but they didn't quite make it. The RAF did use them for training purposes but never for display purposes. They went with another variant. They sold theirs on, mainly.
What was the difference in variant between the RAF trainer and the one the Red Arrows used? I can see the additional fuel tanks, but I assumed they were still the same variant for both?
Firstly Julian Bray is no expert and is usually talking out of his arse. It's a mystery to pilots why the BBC persist in using him.
Secondly the Gnat is essentially the same version the red arrows used and all three airframes were originally from 4 FTS.
Spares for the ejection seat used by Folland were all used up some time ago.
The phrase is carefully constructed about Kevin Whymans RAF career, he was trained as a fast jet pilot.
My best guess is that he flicked it into a spin but there are many many other scenarios. Imagine taking a 1960's formula one car and thrashing it around a track. Many many points of potential failure.
Secondly the Gnat is essentially the same version the red arrows used and all three airframes were originally from 4 FTS.
Spares for the ejection seat used by Folland were all used up some time ago.
The phrase is carefully constructed about Kevin Whymans RAF career, he was trained as a fast jet pilot.
My best guess is that he flicked it into a spin but there are many many other scenarios. Imagine taking a 1960's formula one car and thrashing it around a track. Many many points of potential failure.
Probably not relevant but interesting nevertheless. The same team at Abingdon a few weeks back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mt7i9zCs-c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mt7i9zCs-c
Very interesting video clip from the Abingdon display. Did the Gnat have a tendency to suddenly lose height in tight turns?
I have a clip from the 1960s of a Hawker Hunter at Farnborough doing something very similar. On the occasion the pilot recovered the aeroplane about 20 feet above the ground.
I have a clip from the 1960s of a Hawker Hunter at Farnborough doing something very similar. On the occasion the pilot recovered the aeroplane about 20 feet above the ground.
Motorsport is conducted in such a way that unless you are a participant or spectator you can't get killed or injured. Aerial display flying can kill people who have not chosen to participate or view the flying display and as such there has to be a strict safety biased regulation of the activity.
Personally I love an air display and have displayed aircraft to the public. However, stick to a current type with a current service pilot if you are displaying high performance aircraft.
A Gnat belongs in a museum.
Personally I love an air display and have displayed aircraft to the public. However, stick to a current type with a current service pilot if you are displaying high performance aircraft.
A Gnat belongs in a museum.
converted lurker said:
Motorsport is conducted in such a way that unless you are a participant or spectator you can't get killed or injured. Aerial display flying can kill people who have not chosen to participate or view the flying display and as such there has to be a strict safety biased regulation of the activity.
Personally I love an air display and have displayed aircraft to the public. However, stick to a current type with a current service pilot if you are displaying high performance aircraft.
A Gnat belongs in a museum.
But there is strict regulation of air displays. No spectator has been killed or seriously injured at a UK display for over 60 years, and that incident involved a current type flown by the manufacturers test pilot.Personally I love an air display and have displayed aircraft to the public. However, stick to a current type with a current service pilot if you are displaying high performance aircraft.
A Gnat belongs in a museum.
Yeah well that could have changed had that Gnat entered a spin 2 seconds later and slammed through the cafe roof of the Tarporley and Wyevale Garden Centre at 300kts smearing women and children into jam before incinerating them.
The risky designs, ageing components and relative lack of type experience all lead me to view displaying these sorts of jets as too risky. They're a bit crap anyway. Given the sobering and saddening impact they have made on this years car fest I don't think this sort of thing is going to be booked next year by any similar event. So commercially it might all be over anyway.
The risky designs, ageing components and relative lack of type experience all lead me to view displaying these sorts of jets as too risky. They're a bit crap anyway. Given the sobering and saddening impact they have made on this years car fest I don't think this sort of thing is going to be booked next year by any similar event. So commercially it might all be over anyway.
Dr Jekyll said:
Probably not relevant but interesting nevertheless. The same team at Abingdon a few weeks back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mt7i9zCs-c
That's a chilling video! I wonder if it's the same aircraft? Seems to be some sort of dynamic tip stall going on, you can see it "tuck' when the "G" comes on. Same turn profile as well. Anyone know if the Gnat is prone to "control reversal" problems?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mt7i9zCs-c
Motor racing and rallying accidents have killed and injured spectators on many, many occasions.
Are you suggesting that all air displays be banned because of the potential of an accident?
Sounds like a bit of an over reaction to me.
However, I do think that air displays are not that suited to car type events - especially when the venue isn't an airfield - although my reservations are more to how they fit in to the overall event rather than related to safety issues.
Are you suggesting that all air displays be banned because of the potential of an accident?
Sounds like a bit of an over reaction to me.
However, I do think that air displays are not that suited to car type events - especially when the venue isn't an airfield - although my reservations are more to how they fit in to the overall event rather than related to safety issues.
mrloudly said:
Dr Jekyll said:
Probably not relevant but interesting nevertheless. The same team at Abingdon a few weeks back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mt7i9zCs-c
That's a chilling video! I wonder if it's the same aircraft? Seems to be some sort of dynamic tip stall going on, you can see it "tuck' when the "G" comes on. Same turn profile as well. Anyone know if the Gnat is prone to "control reversal" problems?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mt7i9zCs-c
converted lurker said:
had that Gnat entered a spin 2 seconds later... slammed through... 300kts.. smearing women and children... jam... incinerating them... too risky... bit crap anyway... sobering and saddening...
Seems we'd all better stay in bed then. Nice and safe there. Probably.Eric Mc said:
Motor racing and rallying accidents have killed and injured spectators on many, many occasions.
Are you suggesting that all air displays be banned because of the potential of an accident?
Sounds like a bit of an over reaction to me.
However, I do think that air displays are not that suited to car type events - especially when the venue isn't an airfield - although my reservations are more to how they fit in to the overall event rather than related to safety issues.
Re read what I wrote. I specificallŷ said that spectators and participants are at risk at Motorsport events but the general public going about their totally unconnected business nearby are not.Are you suggesting that all air displays be banned because of the potential of an accident?
Sounds like a bit of an over reaction to me.
However, I do think that air displays are not that suited to car type events - especially when the venue isn't an airfield - although my reservations are more to how they fit in to the overall event rather than related to safety issues.
I also specifically identified the problem I have is with jets designed over 50 years a ago which were a bit tricky even in their day when flown by full time professionals with working ejection seats.
At no point did I advocate banning all air displays although if these sorts of incidents are allowed to happen more frequently then that might become a risk.
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