Crash at Shoreham Air show

[RichB]

charlie7777 said:

Shoreham ATC would have given the pilot the correct setting QNE/QNH when he spoke to them before arrival over the field.

Would not a display pilot set the altimeter to QFE prior to starting a routine?

[V8LM]

Altimeter will be set to QFE (local pressure so reads airfield elevation) as instructed by ATC on the way in.

http://www.weatherhq.co.uk/weather-station/shoreha...
http://www.weatherhq.co.uk/weather-station/conings...

[RichB]

Indeed.

[charlie7777]

RichB said:

charlie7777 said:

Shoreham ATC would have given the pilot the correct setting QNE/QNH when he spoke to them before arrival over the field.

Would not a display pilot set the altimeter to QFE prior to starting a routine?

He would want to do that when planning to arrive over a field at zero feet. And don't forget the downs close by. It is fundamental training for a pilot to do this.....even on a clear day.

[Eric Mc]

I flew into Shoreham with a friend a couple of years ago and in the pre-flight planning the main thing to be concerned about was the high ground to the north of the airfield (the South Downs) and some masts etc to the north of the airfield.

[TTmonkey]

9mm said:

No reports of aircraft falling out of the skys at Gatwick that day or any of the small airports in Sussex/Kent/Surrey. Guess it's possible the weather could have played a part but I'd have thought planes, esp military, would be able operate in rather more arduous conditions than those produced on a sunny Sussex afternoon.

Were any of them attempting to recover from a loop at 500ft? No? What a daft thing to say mate.

The issue is not whether he could do it in this plane, the issue would be was he trying to do this at 80-100mteres lower than is possible/he realises....?

Another 50m of height and we may not of ever been having this kind of conversation would we, in all likely hood. I think he almost recovered the plane, it was flying and was flyable, and I've seen no real evidence of a mechanical failure being the cause yet. No bang, no smoke, no flames before impact.

so perhaps he has misheard ATC telling him the QFE figures, or perhaps dialled them in wrong?

He seemed to run out of sky to fly in, as he seemed to be too low to pull out of the recovery.

[RYH64E]

TTmonkey said:

Were any of them attempting to recover from a loop at 500ft? No? What a daft thing to say mate.

The issue is not whether he could do it in this plane, the issue would be was he trying to do this at 80-100mteres lower than is possible/he realises....?

Another 50m of height and we may not of ever been having this kind of conversation would we, in all likely hood. I think he almost recovered the plane, it was flying and was flyable, and I've seen no real evidence of a mechanical failure being the cause yet. No bang, no smoke, no flames before impact.

so perhaps he has misheard ATC telling him the QFE figures, or perhaps dialled them in wrong?

He seemed to run out of sky to fly in, as he seemed to be too low to pull out of the recovery.

Would you expect such a manoeuvre to operate to such tight limits that a change in weather could lead to a catastrophic accident?

[anonymous-user]

Has anybody found any video footage taken from the west side ?

I have tried YouTube but everybody and their dog seems to have copied most of the footage in the hope of view counts.

I viewed it from the west and after hearing the booms it made me think something was wrong at the top of the loop?

[Funk]

PZR said:

HoHoHo said:

The aircraft definitely did not approach from the north, it started its display and reversal from the SW along the line of the runway

Your description appears to contradict the 'Dan Tube' video as seen on YouTube, where the aircraft is seen moving from right to left in frame, making a low pass and then climbing, part rolling, diving and finally hitting the A27 - at that point moving away from the camera, and in the direction of the sea.

Assuming the camera was in a static location and there are no cuts in the video, the aircraft's approach and climb into the final manoeuvre was from inland and heading in the direction of the sea, as can be seen in the video. That would imply the blue trace in the graphic in question is *more correct* than the pink trace, no?

This video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvHplYmh2f8

I agree. The video appears to be from Mill Hill, plane flying right-to-left and the road in the foreground at the start is the A283 from Steyning and the looping road bottom left as it pans left is the slip from the A27:

Plane vid:



Google Maps:



The plane comes in as if heading south for the runway from the north. It then loops but not in a straight line, coming off the bottom of the loop heading southwest where it then hits the junction.

[RichB]

charlie7777 said:

RichB said:

charlie7777 said:

Shoreham ATC would have given the pilot the correct setting QNE/QNH when he spoke to them before arrival over the field.

Would not a display pilot set the altimeter to QFE prior to starting a routine?

He would want to do that when planning to arrive over a field at zero feet. And don't forget the downs close by. It is fundamental training for a pilot to do this.....even on a clear day.

Do what? Set it to QFE or not to?

[9mm]

TTmonkey said:

9mm said:

No reports of aircraft falling out of the skys at Gatwick that day or any of the small airports in Sussex/Kent/Surrey. Guess it's possible the weather could have played a part but I'd have thought planes, esp military, would be able operate in rather more arduous conditions than those produced on a sunny Sussex afternoon.

Were any of them attempting to recover from a loop at 500ft? No? What a daft thing to say mate.

The issue is not whether he could do it in this plane, the issue would be was he trying to do this at 80-100mteres lower than is possible/he realises....?

Another 50m of height and we may not of ever been having this kind of conversation would we, in all likely hood. I think he almost recovered the plane, it was flying and was flyable, and I've seen no real evidence of a mechanical failure being the cause yet. No bang, no smoke, no flames before impact.

so perhaps he has misheard ATC telling him the QFE figures, or perhaps dialled them in wrong?

He seemed to run out of sky to fly in, as he seemed to be too low to pull out of the recovery.

I would not expect a civilian jet to be affected by the weather conditions on Saturday. I would definitely not expect a military jet, one used in the past for RAF aerobatics as well as fighter combat, to be so affected. Hope that's clear now.

[Eric Mc]

Do you know what effect hot conditions have on jet engine performance or air pressure changes have on generating of or altimeter settings?

[TTmonkey]

RYH64E said:

Would you expect such a manoeuvre to operate to such tight limits that a change in weather could lead to a catastrophic accident?

I would expect such a manoeuvre to end in a safe manner, not crash into the ground like it did. However, I'm pretty sure that there are very small margins for error at 300kts/500ft. A tiny error or miscalculation could lead to unrecoverable problems.

Either the pilot did something wrong, or there was a technical fault, or possibly a combination of both.
(usually there are multiple factors that lead to a disaster - not just one thing - and they sometimes combine in an unexpected way with disastrous consequences).

[TTmonkey]

Eric Mc said:

Do you know what effect hot conditions have on jet engine performance or air pressure changes have on generating of or altimeter settings?

Well I recall the first gulf war was a bit of a surprise for the RAF when the Tornado's struggled to fly anywhere because they used so much fuel due to heat/humidity. They had to basically take-off and then go looking for a tanker before they could go on their missions.

[saaby93]

Funk said:

PZR said:

HoHoHo said:

The aircraft definitely did not approach from the north, it started its display and reversal from the SW along the line of the runway

Your description appears to contradict the 'Dan Tube' video as seen on YouTube, where the aircraft is seen moving from right to left in frame, making a low pass and then climbing, part rolling, diving and finally hitting the A27 - at that point moving away from the camera, and in the direction of the sea.

Assuming the camera was in a static location and there are no cuts in the video, the aircraft's approach and climb into the final manoeuvre was from inland and heading in the direction of the sea, as can be seen in the video.
....

This video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvHplYmh2f8

I agree. The video appears to be from Mill Hill, plane flying right-to-left and the road in the foreground at the start is the A283 from Steyning and the looping road bottom left as it pans left is the slip from the A27:

Plane vid:


Google Maps:


The plane comes in as if heading south for the runway from the north. It then loops but not in a straight line, coming off the bottom of the loop heading southwest where it then hits the junction.

We sorted this a couple of pages back

72twink said:

Here is how my memory plays it - just like SMB and HoHoHo it could be wrong! Excuse the scribbled lines.


Phase 1 (yellow) - a fast, arced pass W-E (maybe more arced than my line)

Phase 2 (red) - a half roll into a large steep turn to the North of the A27, from the crowd line we were looking at the top of the aircraft, this ended with the Hunter heading South.

Phase 3 (green) - Pulling up into a 1/4 Clover or loop with a 90 degree roll carried out on the upward leg so that as he went over the top he was back on the flight line pointing South West.

saaby93 said:

I can tie that up to the video
The first part of the red part is the plane going right to left in the vid

HoHoHo said:

I bet that's what happened (seems to make sense) and I missed a few seconds whilst getting my camera out then stood up and assumed it had simply gone up at 45 degrees

SMB said:

I had a chance to review bobsurgranny video, this diagram is the closest to the actual flight path shown, strange how those few seconds of the banked turn are missing from memory but part of that is either behind the crowd line or behind the hillside. I probably looked at the pictures I had just taken. What it does actually show more clearly is that loop plus the approach were entirely over open land ( not the a27) , probably done so it was away from buildings and crowd.

Edited by saaby93 on Thursday 27th August 14:57

[charlie7777]

RichB said:

charlie7777 said:

RichB said:

charlie7777 said:

Shoreham ATC would have given the pilot the correct setting QNE/QNH when he spoke to them before arrival over the field.

Would not a display pilot set the altimeter to QFE prior to starting a routine?

He would want to do that when planning to arrive over a field at zero feet. And don't forget the downs close by. It is fundamental training for a pilot to do this.....even on a clear day.

Do what? Set it to QFE or not to?

Yes set to QFE. (Sorry about the QNE typo now corrected) Shoreham being almost at sea level QFE and QNH are usually the same.

[angrymoby]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeSpNNxcVEg

*if* this vid hasn't been tampered with, this looks like it's shot from the north embankment of the Adur & shot from approx 500-600m away ...so roughly a 1.5-2s second sound delay ...so that noticeable drop in engine noise at 0:58 (where it hits the deck) ...is actually the audio from around 0:56

I think he lost all power around that point, so...

that would mean around 0:34s in this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvHplYmh2f8

[RichB]

charlie7777 said:

Shoreham being almost at sea level QFE and QNH are usually the same.

Good point well made!

[anonymous-user]

http://youtu.be/XZ4I6_y9qsI

Here is more from Bobsurgranny's channel

[aeropilot]

Funk said:

The plane comes in as if heading south for the runway from the north. It then loops but not in a straight line, coming off the bottom of the loop heading southwest where it then hits the junction.

Because he's not doing a loop, it's almost certain that he was attempting a 1/4 clover manoeuvre which was the designated 2nd part of the routine, after the initial run in from the south.