Crash at Shoreham Air show

[tonyvid]

jamieduff1981 said:

There's a Hunter documentary on Youtube. In it is an interview with a now-elderly test pilot who arrived to demonstrate the aircraft in Europe (Switzerland I think) and started the display by spinning the aircraft to a pre-determined height then initiate recovery to pass low over the airfield. Upon counting the turns in the spin, reaching his gate height and recovering the aircraft he found himself diving vertically at the local landscape with the fields much bigger in the windscreen than he expected. He hadn't set the altimeter to QFE before starting the display...

I went to a RAeS lecture by a Hunter test pilot and he described just this, seems the audience were suitably impressed by the performance and ensuing low pass after the manoeuvre - only he knew how close it was... Fascinating guy who talked about a fascinating aircraft that had some nasty habits so pilots were not permitted to do some certain maneouvers in service. None really applies to what happened this time though.

[Kitchski]

Just read on Facebook that Andy Hill's out of the induced coma and has been moved. Fingers crossed.

[Caruso]

Mave said:

HoHoHo said:

So would it be fair to say the little wobble prior to hitting the ground wasn't an effort to try and alter his course, it was the aircraft in the stall and literally falling out of the sky with wings doing what I've seen models do just before it goes in?

I'm obviously speculating just like others but yes, to me it looked like it was buffet as the wing stalled - on the far side of the CL alpha curve - in a max and decreasing lift, high drag state.

I think it's academic whether he stalled or not at the last second. If he did it was only because he was pulling up too hard to avoid hitting the ground. My opinion (for what it's worth) is that something went wrong in the manoeuvre on the downward part of the 'loop' and there's not enough evidence to say if it was pilot error, mechanical or some other problem at this stage.

Glad to hear he's out of the coma.

[HarryW]

tonyvid said:

jamieduff1981 said:

There's a Hunter documentary on Youtube. In it is an interview with a now-elderly test pilot who arrived to demonstrate the aircraft in Europe (Switzerland I think) and started the display by spinning the aircraft to a pre-determined height then initiate recovery to pass low over the airfield. Upon counting the turns in the spin, reaching his gate height and recovering the aircraft he found himself diving vertically at the local landscape with the fields much bigger in the windscreen than he expected. He hadn't set the altimeter to QFE before starting the display...

I went to a RAeS lecture by a Hunter test pilot and he described just this, seems the audience were suitably impressed by the performance and ensuing low pass after the manoeuvre - only he knew how close it was... Fascinating guy who talked about a fascinating aircraft that had some nasty habits so pilots were not permitted to do some certain maneouvers in service. None really applies to what happened this time though.

All the conversations I've heard between controllers and fighter jocks it has always been QNH, which gives them Altitude AMSL. QFE is height above a the reporting station.....

[Eric Mc]

HarryW said:

All the conversations I've heard between controllers and fighter jocks it has always been QNH, which gives them Altitude AMSL. QFE is height above a the reporting station.....

Which is why you would expect the pilot to set his altimeter to QFE before starting his display over the airfield.

[Cobalt Blue]

HarryW said:

All the conversations I've heard between controllers and fighter jocks it has always been QNH, which gives them Altitude AMSL. QFE is height above a the reporting station.....

Civvy pilots set QNH for en-route flight, thus all (hopefully) aircraft are using the same altimeter setting. FL20 for example (or any FL) can vary by hundreds of feet, depending on barometric pressure at the time. A pilot will be given QFE when contacting the approach controller so that circuit height (or descent profile/rate for commercial stuff) can be judged, relative to height of the airport.

[jamieduff1981]

Eric Mc said:

HarryW said:

All the conversations I've heard between controllers and fighter jocks it has always been QNH, which gives them Altitude AMSL. QFE is height above a the reporting station.....

Which is why you would expect the pilot to set his altimeter to QFE before starting his display over the airfield.

Exactly. When you're high up you're interested in what height the other planes are at. When you're low down you want the altimeter to read zero at ground level, not (for example), 300ft below the ground at that particular airfield.

[mrloudly]

Cobalt Blue said:

HarryW said:

All the conversations I've heard between controllers and fighter jocks it has always been QNH, which gives them Altitude AMSL. QFE is height above a the reporting station.....

Civvy pilots set QNH for en-route flight, thus all (hopefully) aircraft are using the same altimeter setting. FL20 for example (or any FL) can vary by hundreds of feet, depending on barometric pressure at the time. A pilot will be given QFE when contacting the approach controller so that circuit height (or descent profile/rate for commercial stuff) can be judged, relative to height of the airport.

Civvy pilots set their altimeters to the ISA setting of 1013mb when above the "Transition" altitude, currently varying between 3000' to 6000' in the UK

Q"NH" Nautical height Q"FE" Field elevation

[Cobalt Blue]

Oops! over 30 years since I last flew (as a PPL) Perhaps I can claim a senior moment in mitigation?

mrloudly said:

Cobalt Blue said:

HarryW said:

All the conversations I've heard between controllers and fighter jocks it has always been QNH, which gives them Altitude AMSL. QFE is height above a the reporting station.....

Civvy pilots set QNH for en-route flight, thus all (hopefully) aircraft are using the same altimeter setting. FL20 for example (or any FL) can vary by hundreds of feet, depending on barometric pressure at the time. A pilot will be given QFE when contacting the approach controller so that circuit height (or descent profile/rate for commercial stuff) can be judged, relative to height of the airport.

Civvy pilots set their altimeters to the ISA setting of 1013mb when above the "Transition" altitude, currently varying between 3000' to 6000' in the UK

Q"NH" Nautical height Q"FE" Field elevation

[onyx39]

Kitchski said:

Just read on Facebook that Andy Hill's out of the induced coma and has been moved. Fingers crossed.

I heard yesterday that he was transferred to another "undisclosed" hospital? Not for his protection surely?

[SydneyBridge]

onyx39 said:

I heard yesterday that he was transferred to another "undisclosed" hospital? Not for his protection surely?

I read that as well and I imagine it is for his own protection, from the media as much as anything I guess.

Would not like to be the person who tells him what happened.

[Smollet]

onyx39 said:

I heard yesterday that he was transferred to another "undisclosed" hospital? Not for his protection surely?

Probaly to stop the media harassing his family when they visit or the hospital specialises in his current condition

[Mabbs9]

Cobalt Blue said:

Civvy pilots set QNH for en-route flight, thus all (hopefully) aircraft are using the same altimeter setting. FL20 for example (or any FL) can vary by hundreds of feet, depending on barometric pressure at the time. A pilot will be given QFE when contacting the approach controller so that circuit height (or descent profile/rate for commercial stuff) can be judged, relative to height of the airport.

We stick on QNH for all ops in our company, even when operating in China/Russia where QFE ops are the norm, we convert to QNH. Btw.

[RichB]

Mabbs9 said:

Cobalt Blue said:

Civvy pilots set QNH for en-route flight...

We stick on QNH for all ops in our company...

Does that include aerobatic displays?

[mrloudly]

Mabbs9 said:

Cobalt Blue said:

Civvy pilots set QNH for en-route flight, thus all (hopefully) aircraft are using the same altimeter setting. FL20 for example (or any FL) can vary by hundreds of feet, depending on barometric pressure at the time. A pilot will be given QFE when contacting the approach controller so that circuit height (or descent profile/rate for commercial stuff) can be judged, relative to height of the airport.

We stick on QNH for all ops in our company, even when operating in China/Russia where QFE ops are the norm, we convert to QNH. Btw.

Guess you're not operating in the airways?

[Mabbs9]

Aeros are discouraged .

Yep in the airways, anything above transition alt is on 'standard' so all refrenced to 1013 and a bit. CIS and China complicated things by using metric with QFE. We still convert to imperial and QNH, it just means an airway is flown at 26400' or 31500 etc. Anyway, bit off topic.

[Caruso]

The A27 has reopened with lane restrictions and the crash area screened off.

[NDA]

Caruso said:

The A27 has reopened with lane restrictions and the crash area screened off.

Useful info. Thanks....

I need to access this junction next weekend and was wondering, perhaps selfishly, how to get through.

[Eric Mc]

What stopper and what bottle?

And how do you know accidents won't happen again?

Are you clairvoyant?

[mybrainhurts]

Eric Mc said:

What stopper and what bottle?

And how do you know accidents won't happen again?

Are you clairvoyant?

Right. Either someone deleted a post or Eric's lost it big time.

Guesses on a postcard....