Crash at Shoreham Air show
Discussion
Richie Slow said:
Since Shoreham, the goalposts have moved and are still moving. We shouldn't forget where the goalposts were at the time.
It seems that the goalposts should have been moved somewhat earlier than some on here have been prepared to accept in the past. Then, perhaps, some people would still be alive.Robertj21a said:
It seems that the goalposts should have been moved somewhat earlier than some on here have been prepared to accept in the past. Then, perhaps, some people would still be alive.
While you're playing "Waddngton's Hindsight" could you shoot Gavrilo Princip in 1913 please? That would save even more.pc.iow said:
The more i think about it, the more unbelievable i find it that a jet is allowed to do a loop over anywhere people could be.
It wasn't a loop 
And the manouevre itself may not have been the issue - aircraft and pilots are well used to it.
There'll be some other factor or series of factors that will come out.
Otherwise you could say most same about anything.
Aeroplanes shouldnt be allowed to fly over the alps?
saaby93 said:
pc.iow said:
The more i think about it, the more unbelievable i find it that a jet is allowed to do a loop over anywhere people could be.
It wasn't a loop And the manouevre itself may not have been the issue - aircraft and pilots are well used to it.
There'll be some other factor or series of factors that will come out.
Otherwise you could say most same about anything.
Aeroplanes shouldnt be allowed to fly over the alps?
pc.iow said:
The more i think about it, the more unbelievable i find it that a jet is allowed to do a loop over anywhere people could be.
The aircraft did do a loop - have a look at this drawing from earlier in the thread.
The Hunter approached from the sea along the runaway (flightline). It then travelled away from the airport turning right slightly and started a left hand 180 degree turn then starting the loop at the far right of the flightline. It then exited the loop crossing the A27 across the junction. Note - the junction is not on the same line as the runway and rather than a perfect loop where you enter and exit at either the same height and the same heading the aircraft was heading slightly right out of the loop and it would appear lower than when it went in.
When the aircraft arrived I was playing with my camera taking shots of it as it travelled along the runway. I then looked down for a few moments by which time it had completed the left 180 degree turn and was on its way up into the loop (hence initially I thought it had flown along the runway and gone straight into the loop which it hadn't).
My own thoughts for what they are worth are he entered the loop too low and exited lower, he ran out of height. I understand he should have been at a minimum of 500ft when entering giving which would have given him sufficient just in case he exited lower than entry. My understand of the figures are he entered the loop at 100ft or so.
However, we must wait for the final report as no doubt I will be told.
HoHoHo said:
My own thoughts for what they are worth are he entered the loop too low and exited lower, he ran out of height. I understand he should have been at a minimum of 500ft when entering giving which would have given him sufficient just in case he exited lower than entry. My understand of the figures are he entered the loop at 100ft or so.
However, we must wait for the final report as no doubt I will be told.
He certainly should have climbed to 500 feet before starting the 'loop', but since the manoeuvre starts with a climb it's a bit tricky to state at what height it started.However, we must wait for the final report as no doubt I will be told.
Apparently there's another report somewhere
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-360387...
That article reads as though theyre doing something in case something goes wrong without stating what actually went wrong in this case or if the doing something would have made a difference here,
In News and politics theyre saying the display should be higher and further away from the public, yet this occurred away from the main group of public, unless they mean the public shouldnt be allowed to congregate away from the main area
Useless article?
Anyone found the alleged report. It's not here
https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/air-ac...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-360387...
That article reads as though theyre doing something in case something goes wrong without stating what actually went wrong in this case or if the doing something would have made a difference here,
In News and politics theyre saying the display should be higher and further away from the public, yet this occurred away from the main group of public, unless they mean the public shouldnt be allowed to congregate away from the main area
Useless article?
Anyone found the alleged report. It's not here
https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/air-ac...
Edited by saaby93 on Thursday 14th April 08:36
This is a bit of an over reaction. If that jet had performed the same manoeuvre, but piled into an empty field, it would have marked down as one of those things and joined the long list of airshow mishaps on YouTube.
The decision the CAA have made after Shoreham now means that all ex-military jets have to fly higher and further away.
As they haven't confirmed mechanical failure as the cause of the accident - following their logic - why not all jets..?
The decision the CAA have made after Shoreham now means that all ex-military jets have to fly higher and further away.
As they haven't confirmed mechanical failure as the cause of the accident - following their logic - why not all jets..?
Cobnapint said:
This is a bit of an over reaction. If that jet had performed the same manoeuvre, but piled into an empty field, it would have marked down as one of those things and joined the long list of airshow mishaps on YouTube.
The decision the CAA have made after Shoreham now means that all ex-military jets have to fly higher and further away.
As they haven't confirmed mechanical failure as the cause of the accident - following their logic - why not all jets..?
This, as a non-specialist, was what puzzled me when I saw it reported on the morning news.The decision the CAA have made after Shoreham now means that all ex-military jets have to fly higher and further away.
As they haven't confirmed mechanical failure as the cause of the accident - following their logic - why not all jets..?
Cannot understand this. We have read that this plane should have commenced the loop at 500 feet but there is speculation that it was lower than that, so what will lifting the minimum height do if the current guidelines were being ignored, and as yet we do not know the root cause of the crash, at least from what I have seen.
Oldred_V8S said:
Cannot understand this. We have read that this plane should have commenced the loop at 500 feet but there is speculation that it was lower than that, so what will lifting the minimum height do if the current guidelines were being ignored, and as yet we do not know the root cause of the crash, at least from what I have seen.
I think many people made a decent guess at the root cause of the crash when they first saw the videos.dr_gn said:
Oldred_V8S said:
Cannot understand this. We have read that this plane should have commenced the loop at 500 feet but there is speculation that it was lower than that, so what will lifting the minimum height do if the current guidelines were being ignored, and as yet we do not know the root cause of the crash, at least from what I have seen.
I think many people made a decent guess at the root cause of the crash when they first saw the videos.
dr_gn said:
I think many people made a decent guess at the root cause of the crash when they first saw the videos.
The root cause may never be explained fully (by the AAIB) , their role is to identify areas where lessons can be learned from accidents and make recommendations to the regulator, in our case the CAA. The CAA can then decide to accept and implement those recommendations or to reject them, or to make their own. The AAIB is not interested in apportioning blame and they are not at liberty to share their 'evidence' with any criminal investigation, although a High Court ruling may be about to change that very soon. The danger [either way] is that it could make accident investigation quite territorial in the future with the Police wanting potential evidence preserved and the accident investigators working to a different remit. That's why air accidents have, pre-Shoreham, not attracted criminal investigations, so that investigations can be open and honest between all stakeholders without the imminent threat of prosecutions.
PS. You are probably right though
Oldred_V8S said:
Cannot understand this. We have read that this plane should have commenced the loop at 500 feet but there is speculation that it was lower than that, so what will lifting the minimum height do if the current guidelines were being ignored, and as yet we do not know the root cause of the crash, at least from what I have seen.
Is it clear they have lifted the minimum height? Or have they reiterated it and youre only allowed to go below it if approvedhttp://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP%201400%20A...
Final report said:
Full list of actions, and which follow on from the Action Report
Updated Action 7: With effect from 1 April 2016, a display authorisation will only remain valid for pilots of all registered aircraft who hold either an EU medical certificate issued by an AME or an ICAO medical certificate that is of an equivalent or higher standard.
Updated Action 10: Currency
- display pilots authorised to perform at standard level aerobatics in multiple categories including jet powered and helicopter categories must renew in those categories at least every two years; and
- where that authorisation also includes one or more of turboprop, multi-engine piston (MEP) or single-engine piston (SEP) categories they must rotate their renewal across those categories year on year.
Action 17: Pilots authorised to perform standard level aerobatics will only be permitted to perform loops or barrel rolls in civil registered ex-military jet aircraft at civil air displays if they have received explicit approval from a suitably qualified DAE. Approval will be made clear on a pilot’s DA.
Action 18: FDDs must verify the DA of pilots wishing to perform standard level loops and barrel rolls in civil registered ex-military jet aircraft to confirm that they have the authorisation to perform the manoeuvres.
Action 19: With immediate effect
- where a display aircraft is performing aerobatics at a speed of between 200 and 300 kt IAS, the minimum distance between the crowd and the display line must be 230 metres;
- where a display aircraft is performing at a speed in excess of 300 kt IAS, and the display includes any high speed manoeuvres towards the crowd, the minimum distance between the crowd and the display line must be 450 metres; and
- for light aircraft, with a maximum weight of less than 1200kg and operating speeds of less than 150 kt IAS throughout the display, the minimum separation is 150 metres.
Action 20: From publication of this report, and until further notice, operators of civil registered ex-military jet aircraft must seek formal approval from the CAA to perform aerobatic manoeuvres below 500 feet.
Action 21: With immediate effect the weather minima for flying displays by aircraft other than V/STOL aircraft operating in jet-borne flight/V/STOL mode, rotorcraft and other aircraft with a stalling speed below 50 knots, flying flat aerobatic displays, will be 500 ft cloud base BKN and OVC and 5 km visibility for both solo and formation displays.
Action 22: From the 2016 display season onwards all event organisers and FDDs must submit a post-air display report to the CAA. Pilots must also report any aspect of their display that could have caused a significant safety risk.
Action 23: FDDs will be responsible for reporting all breaches of safety at their display to the CAA. Where a ‘stop’ call is made during a display for reasons related to the fitness or competence of a pilot the circumstances leading to the ‘stop’ must be reported to the pilot concerned and to the CAA as soon as practicable. In such circumstances the CAA will issue a provisional suspension of the display authorisation to the pilot concerned.
Action 24: We will review the criteria and requirements for the acceptance of ex-military aircraft onto the civil register. This work will be completed by early 2017.
Action 25: We will require maintenance schedules for ex-military aircraft on the civil register to be provided to the CAA, so that we can harmonise schedules and improve the standard of these documents. This work will be completed by the end of 2016.
Action 26: We will work closely with the MAA and the Ministry of Defence to enhance the CAA’s understanding of the revision levels of key military publications on which maintenance schedules for which ex-military aircraft are based. This work will be completed by the end of 2016.
Action 27: We will conduct a review of all ex-military aircraft on the civil register that are required to have ejection seats fitted and active to ensure that they are necessary and appropriately maintained. This work should all be concluded by early 2017.
Action 28: We will establish continued airworthiness boards for different types and classes of aircraft to facilitate regular exchange of airworthiness information of type- or class-specific best practice. We expect the first of these meetings to be held before the end of May this year.
Action 29: The CAA will commence a programme of work to study and enhance understanding of human factor issues within the air display sector, starting with a full-day industry workshop on the causes and impact of human error for display pilots (date to be set).
Updated Action 7: With effect from 1 April 2016, a display authorisation will only remain valid for pilots of all registered aircraft who hold either an EU medical certificate issued by an AME or an ICAO medical certificate that is of an equivalent or higher standard.
Updated Action 10: Currency
- display pilots authorised to perform at standard level aerobatics in multiple categories including jet powered and helicopter categories must renew in those categories at least every two years; and
- where that authorisation also includes one or more of turboprop, multi-engine piston (MEP) or single-engine piston (SEP) categories they must rotate their renewal across those categories year on year.
Action 17: Pilots authorised to perform standard level aerobatics will only be permitted to perform loops or barrel rolls in civil registered ex-military jet aircraft at civil air displays if they have received explicit approval from a suitably qualified DAE. Approval will be made clear on a pilot’s DA.
Action 18: FDDs must verify the DA of pilots wishing to perform standard level loops and barrel rolls in civil registered ex-military jet aircraft to confirm that they have the authorisation to perform the manoeuvres.
Action 19: With immediate effect
- where a display aircraft is performing aerobatics at a speed of between 200 and 300 kt IAS, the minimum distance between the crowd and the display line must be 230 metres;
- where a display aircraft is performing at a speed in excess of 300 kt IAS, and the display includes any high speed manoeuvres towards the crowd, the minimum distance between the crowd and the display line must be 450 metres; and
- for light aircraft, with a maximum weight of less than 1200kg and operating speeds of less than 150 kt IAS throughout the display, the minimum separation is 150 metres.
Action 20: From publication of this report, and until further notice, operators of civil registered ex-military jet aircraft must seek formal approval from the CAA to perform aerobatic manoeuvres below 500 feet.
Action 21: With immediate effect the weather minima for flying displays by aircraft other than V/STOL aircraft operating in jet-borne flight/V/STOL mode, rotorcraft and other aircraft with a stalling speed below 50 knots, flying flat aerobatic displays, will be 500 ft cloud base BKN and OVC and 5 km visibility for both solo and formation displays.
Action 22: From the 2016 display season onwards all event organisers and FDDs must submit a post-air display report to the CAA. Pilots must also report any aspect of their display that could have caused a significant safety risk.
Action 23: FDDs will be responsible for reporting all breaches of safety at their display to the CAA. Where a ‘stop’ call is made during a display for reasons related to the fitness or competence of a pilot the circumstances leading to the ‘stop’ must be reported to the pilot concerned and to the CAA as soon as practicable. In such circumstances the CAA will issue a provisional suspension of the display authorisation to the pilot concerned.
Action 24: We will review the criteria and requirements for the acceptance of ex-military aircraft onto the civil register. This work will be completed by early 2017.
Action 25: We will require maintenance schedules for ex-military aircraft on the civil register to be provided to the CAA, so that we can harmonise schedules and improve the standard of these documents. This work will be completed by the end of 2016.
Action 26: We will work closely with the MAA and the Ministry of Defence to enhance the CAA’s understanding of the revision levels of key military publications on which maintenance schedules for which ex-military aircraft are based. This work will be completed by the end of 2016.
Action 27: We will conduct a review of all ex-military aircraft on the civil register that are required to have ejection seats fitted and active to ensure that they are necessary and appropriately maintained. This work should all be concluded by early 2017.
Action 28: We will establish continued airworthiness boards for different types and classes of aircraft to facilitate regular exchange of airworthiness information of type- or class-specific best practice. We expect the first of these meetings to be held before the end of May this year.
Action 29: The CAA will commence a programme of work to study and enhance understanding of human factor issues within the air display sector, starting with a full-day industry workshop on the causes and impact of human error for display pilots (date to be set).
Edited by saaby93 on Thursday 14th April 17:23
Richie Slow said:
The root cause may never be explained fully (by the AAIB) , their role is to identify areas where lessons can be learned from accidents and make recommendations to the regulator, in our case the CAA. The CAA can then decide to accept and implement those recommendations or to reject them, or to make their own.
The AAIB is not interested in apportioning blame and they are not at liberty to share their 'evidence' with any criminal investigation, although a High Court ruling may be about to change that very soon. The danger [either way] is that it could make accident investigation quite territorial in the future with the Police wanting potential evidence preserved and the accident investigators working to a different remit. That's why air accidents have, pre-Shoreham, not attracted criminal investigations, so that investigations can be open and honest between all stakeholders without the imminent threat of prosecutions.
PS. You are probably right though
There have been several high profile cases of prosecutions within the International air transport world and it seems criminal prosecutions are becoming more prevalent. I think that society in general wants accountability, but in my view its can't have both an honest internal reporting culture and prosecution of employees, without a backwards step in preventing the reoccurrence of aircraft accidents.The AAIB is not interested in apportioning blame and they are not at liberty to share their 'evidence' with any criminal investigation, although a High Court ruling may be about to change that very soon. The danger [either way] is that it could make accident investigation quite territorial in the future with the Police wanting potential evidence preserved and the accident investigators working to a different remit. That's why air accidents have, pre-Shoreham, not attracted criminal investigations, so that investigations can be open and honest between all stakeholders without the imminent threat of prosecutions.
PS. You are probably right though
TSCfree said:
There have been several high profile cases of prosecutions within the International air transport world and it seems criminal prosecutions are becoming more prevalent. I think that society in general wants accountability, but in my view its can't have both an honest internal reporting culture and prosecution of employees, without a backwards step in preventing the reoccurrence of aircraft accidents.
I agree.Sorry, I wasn't very clear in what I meant. Cases brought by the CAA for low flying or other infringements have always existed in the background. It's the criminal cases brought by the CPS that could prevent potential evidence from being given so willingly to the AAIB in the future.
saaby93 said:
Final report said:
Full list of actions, and which follow on from the Action Report
Updated Action 7: With effect from 1 April 2016, a display authorisation will only remain valid for pilots of all registered aircraft who hold either an EU medical certificate issued by an AME or an ICAO medical certificate that is of an equivalent or higher standard.
Updated Action 10: Currency
- display pilots authorised to perform at standard level aerobatics in multiple categories including jet powered and helicopter categories must renew in those categories at least every two years; and
- where that authorisation also includes one or more of turboprop, multi-engine piston (MEP) or single-engine piston (SEP) categories they must rotate their renewal across those categories year on year.
Action 17: Pilots authorised to perform standard level aerobatics will only be permitted to perform loops or barrel rolls in civil registered ex-military jet aircraft at civil air displays if they have received explicit approval from a suitably qualified DAE. Approval will be made clear on a pilot’s DA.
Action 18: FDDs must verify the DA of pilots wishing to perform standard level loops and barrel rolls in civil registered ex-military jet aircraft to confirm that they have the authorisation to perform the manoeuvres.
Action 19: With immediate effect
- where a display aircraft is performing aerobatics at a speed of between 200 and 300 kt IAS, the minimum distance between the crowd and the display line must be 230 metres;
- where a display aircraft is performing at a speed in excess of 300 kt IAS, and the display includes any high speed manoeuvres towards the crowd, the minimum distance between the crowd and the display line must be 450 metres; and
- for light aircraft, with a maximum weight of less than 1200kg and operating speeds of less than 150 kt IAS throughout the display, the minimum separation is 150 metres.
Action 20: From publication of this report, and until further notice, operators of civil registered ex-military jet aircraft must seek formal approval from the CAA to perform aerobatic manoeuvres below 500 feet.
Action 21: With immediate effect the weather minima for flying displays by aircraft other than V/STOL aircraft operating in jet-borne flight/V/STOL mode, rotorcraft and other aircraft with a stalling speed below 50 knots, flying flat aerobatic displays, will be 500 ft cloud base BKN and OVC and 5 km visibility for both solo and formation displays.
Action 22: From the 2016 display season onwards all event organisers and FDDs must submit a post-air display report to the CAA. Pilots must also report any aspect of their display that could have caused a significant safety risk.
Action 23: FDDs will be responsible for reporting all breaches of safety at their display to the CAA. Where a ‘stop’ call is made during a display for reasons related to the fitness or competence of a pilot the circumstances leading to the ‘stop’ must be reported to the pilot concerned and to the CAA as soon as practicable. In such circumstances the CAA will issue a provisional suspension of the display authorisation to the pilot concerned.
Action 24: We will review the criteria and requirements for the acceptance of ex-military aircraft onto the civil register. This work will be completed by early 2017.
Action 25: We will require maintenance schedules for ex-military aircraft on the civil register to be provided to the CAA, so that we can harmonise schedules and improve the standard of these documents. This work will be completed by the end of 2016.
Action 26: We will work closely with the MAA and the Ministry of Defence to enhance the CAA’s understanding of the revision levels of key military publications on which maintenance schedules for which ex-military aircraft are based. This work will be completed by the end of 2016.
Action 27: We will conduct a review of all ex-military aircraft on the civil register that are required to have ejection seats fitted and active to ensure that they are necessary and appropriately maintained. This work should all be concluded by early 2017.
Action 28: We will establish continued airworthiness boards for different types and classes of aircraft to facilitate regular exchange of airworthiness information of type- or class-specific best practice. We expect the first of these meetings to be held before the end of May this year.
Action 29: The CAA will commence a programme of work to study and enhance understanding of human factor issues within the air display sector, starting with a full-day industry workshop on the causes and impact of human error for display pilots (date to be set).
Updated Action 7: With effect from 1 April 2016, a display authorisation will only remain valid for pilots of all registered aircraft who hold either an EU medical certificate issued by an AME or an ICAO medical certificate that is of an equivalent or higher standard.
Updated Action 10: Currency
- display pilots authorised to perform at standard level aerobatics in multiple categories including jet powered and helicopter categories must renew in those categories at least every two years; and
- where that authorisation also includes one or more of turboprop, multi-engine piston (MEP) or single-engine piston (SEP) categories they must rotate their renewal across those categories year on year.
Action 17: Pilots authorised to perform standard level aerobatics will only be permitted to perform loops or barrel rolls in civil registered ex-military jet aircraft at civil air displays if they have received explicit approval from a suitably qualified DAE. Approval will be made clear on a pilot’s DA.
Action 18: FDDs must verify the DA of pilots wishing to perform standard level loops and barrel rolls in civil registered ex-military jet aircraft to confirm that they have the authorisation to perform the manoeuvres.
Action 19: With immediate effect
- where a display aircraft is performing aerobatics at a speed of between 200 and 300 kt IAS, the minimum distance between the crowd and the display line must be 230 metres;
- where a display aircraft is performing at a speed in excess of 300 kt IAS, and the display includes any high speed manoeuvres towards the crowd, the minimum distance between the crowd and the display line must be 450 metres; and
- for light aircraft, with a maximum weight of less than 1200kg and operating speeds of less than 150 kt IAS throughout the display, the minimum separation is 150 metres.
Action 20: From publication of this report, and until further notice, operators of civil registered ex-military jet aircraft must seek formal approval from the CAA to perform aerobatic manoeuvres below 500 feet.
Action 21: With immediate effect the weather minima for flying displays by aircraft other than V/STOL aircraft operating in jet-borne flight/V/STOL mode, rotorcraft and other aircraft with a stalling speed below 50 knots, flying flat aerobatic displays, will be 500 ft cloud base BKN and OVC and 5 km visibility for both solo and formation displays.
Action 22: From the 2016 display season onwards all event organisers and FDDs must submit a post-air display report to the CAA. Pilots must also report any aspect of their display that could have caused a significant safety risk.
Action 23: FDDs will be responsible for reporting all breaches of safety at their display to the CAA. Where a ‘stop’ call is made during a display for reasons related to the fitness or competence of a pilot the circumstances leading to the ‘stop’ must be reported to the pilot concerned and to the CAA as soon as practicable. In such circumstances the CAA will issue a provisional suspension of the display authorisation to the pilot concerned.
Action 24: We will review the criteria and requirements for the acceptance of ex-military aircraft onto the civil register. This work will be completed by early 2017.
Action 25: We will require maintenance schedules for ex-military aircraft on the civil register to be provided to the CAA, so that we can harmonise schedules and improve the standard of these documents. This work will be completed by the end of 2016.
Action 26: We will work closely with the MAA and the Ministry of Defence to enhance the CAA’s understanding of the revision levels of key military publications on which maintenance schedules for which ex-military aircraft are based. This work will be completed by the end of 2016.
Action 27: We will conduct a review of all ex-military aircraft on the civil register that are required to have ejection seats fitted and active to ensure that they are necessary and appropriately maintained. This work should all be concluded by early 2017.
Action 28: We will establish continued airworthiness boards for different types and classes of aircraft to facilitate regular exchange of airworthiness information of type- or class-specific best practice. We expect the first of these meetings to be held before the end of May this year.
Action 29: The CAA will commence a programme of work to study and enhance understanding of human factor issues within the air display sector, starting with a full-day industry workshop on the causes and impact of human error for display pilots (date to be set).
And it's not just jet operators that are questioning their air display future either, see this depressing post (rant) from Peter T of Hanger 11 about the CAA
https://www.facebook.com/Hangar11Collection/posts/...
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