Crash at Shoreham Air show
Discussion
I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion before earlier on in the thread, having worked with 2 RAF display teams before moving into civil aviation in both fixed wing and rotary I'd hope that I know just a bit more than the regular poster and I'm happy to share the information that I do know.
With everything we have our specialisations/careers and there are certainly more knowledgable/experienced posters on this thread than myself and if you believe I have tried to impose my sense of self appointed expertise than I apologise as that is not my intention.
This all started from your post regarding the red arrows being better maintained than older aircraft.
Obviously I've already posted the following facts:
The hawk T1 is 40 years old
The red arrows engineering had a big shake up a couple of years ago due to lowering standards
The red arrows were regularly conducting an unauthorised manouvere
A red arrows pilot died after numerous people including the pilot failed to spot an unsafe position on the ejector handle
Having worked for a EASA part 145 licensed business I can assure you that standards within aviation maintenance are generally second to none and are highly regulated / audited by the CAA. Yes you will always get ones that slip through the net / choose to cut corners but in any industry you will come across that.
As has already been touched on previously it is far more common for aviation accidents to be pilot error than it is to be a mechanical failure.
I hope this clears the matter up.
With everything we have our specialisations/careers and there are certainly more knowledgable/experienced posters on this thread than myself and if you believe I have tried to impose my sense of self appointed expertise than I apologise as that is not my intention.
This all started from your post regarding the red arrows being better maintained than older aircraft.
Obviously I've already posted the following facts:
The hawk T1 is 40 years old
The red arrows engineering had a big shake up a couple of years ago due to lowering standards
The red arrows were regularly conducting an unauthorised manouvere
A red arrows pilot died after numerous people including the pilot failed to spot an unsafe position on the ejector handle
Having worked for a EASA part 145 licensed business I can assure you that standards within aviation maintenance are generally second to none and are highly regulated / audited by the CAA. Yes you will always get ones that slip through the net / choose to cut corners but in any industry you will come across that.
As has already been touched on previously it is far more common for aviation accidents to be pilot error than it is to be a mechanical failure.
I hope this clears the matter up.
These petty arguments are in really bad taste. It seems to me that the people who are avidly pro-airshow hide behind cleverly worded arguments that absolve them of any burden of proof to back up their statements, and the people such as myself who are uncomfortable that so many innocent and non-involved people died for no reason are annoyed at their attitude, especially the dismissive nature of many posters.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I felt I gave as good as I got so appologies once again. The hawk is still in production however the T2 is quite a different aircraft from the T1 that the red arrows use. Basically anaglogue vs digital as a simple summary. The red arrows also use a different engine to the rest of the fleet.
Don't forget that the hawker hunter is still widely used around the world by civil operators supporting military training so the expertise and engineering support is still in place for these.
BrabusMog said:
These petty arguments are in really bad taste. It seems to me that the people who are avidly pro-airshow hide behind cleverly worded arguments that absolve them of any burden of proof to back up their statements, and the people such as myself who are uncomfortable that so many innocent and non-involved people died for no reason are annoyed at their attitude, especially the dismissive nature of many posters.
I am pro airshow but then I have been on the circuit and seen how many people have a positive view on airshows. I have also sadly been present when one of the red arrows crashed and that was a day I'd not like to repeat. However the next day seeing everyone wearing red was a site one will never forget. I also agree that no one should be subject to what the families and the individuals at shoreham have been through. Clearly the controls that should have been in place were not enforced / adhered to and hopefully from this regulations will be more tightly enforced whilst allowing the millions of people who attend airshows each year the pleasure of seeing aircraft perform a safe but exciting display.
ecsrobin said:
I am pro airshow but then I have been on the circuit and seen how many people have a positive view on airshows. I have also sadly been present when one of the red arrows crashed and that was a day I'd not like to repeat. However the next day seeing everyone wearing red was a site one will never forget.
I also agree that no one should be subject to what the families and the individuals at shoreham have been through. Clearly the controls that should have been in place were not enforced / adhered to and hopefully from this regulations will be more tightly enforced whilst allowing the millions of people who attend airshows each year the pleasure of seeing aircraft perform a safe but exciting display.
Good post, I am also pro airshow but have just felt terrible at the thought of any family member of the deceased potentially seeing bickering on forums about airshow safety etc when they've lost loved ones.I also agree that no one should be subject to what the families and the individuals at shoreham have been through. Clearly the controls that should have been in place were not enforced / adhered to and hopefully from this regulations will be more tightly enforced whilst allowing the millions of people who attend airshows each year the pleasure of seeing aircraft perform a safe but exciting display.
BrabusMog said:
These petty arguments are in really bad taste. It seems to me that the people who are avidly pro-airshow hide behind cleverly worded arguments that absolve them of any burden of proof to back up their statements, and the people such as myself who are uncomfortable that so many innocent and non-involved people died for no reason are annoyed at their attitude, especially the dismissive nature of many posters.
What he said.BrabusMog said:
Good post, I am also pro airshow but have just felt terrible at the thought of any family member of the deceased potentially seeing bickering on forums about airshow safety etc when they've lost loved ones.
This is often discussed on pprune (aviation forum) nothing can sadly change what has happened, also most / none of us are likely to be able to influence industry changes that will stop this happening in the future. But without having discussions (which clearly on a subject like this has sidelined with bickering, and is why I avoided this topic for months only to click in again!) then people can't make decisions about how they feel. There are multiple sides to every story and hopefully between all the hot air an individual can make an informed view on how they feel about what happend (AIB report does that) and how they feel about the future of air shows.
BrabusMog said:
These petty arguments are in really bad taste. It seems to me that the people who are avidly pro-airshow hide behind cleverly worded arguments that absolve them of any burden of proof to back up their statements, and the people such as myself who are uncomfortable that so many innocent and non-involved people died for no reason are annoyed at their attitude, especially the dismissive nature of many posters.
This - definitely +1NinjaPower said:
BrabusMog said:
These petty arguments are in really bad taste. It seems to me that the people who are avidly pro-airshow hide behind cleverly worded arguments that absolve them of any burden of proof to back up their statements, and the people such as myself who are uncomfortable that so many innocent and non-involved people died for no reason are annoyed at their attitude, especially the dismissive nature of many posters.
What he said.anonymous said:
[redacted]
What he will have been discussing is just culture which was introduced after numerous crashes that could have been avoided if people had spoken up. I believe a lot of big businesses are now taking on just culture as it is relevant in all walks of life. And hopefully "colossal b
ks" is not a reference to me. anonymous said:
[redacted]
To be fair, neither side has covered themselves in glory on this thread.Some people have wilfully not understood the way aircraft accidents are investigated even when it's been explained by many different people involved in the industry, whilst on the other side there are people who seem think nothing should happen to the pilot and everything should just carry on.
It's just the nature of things, no need to get one's knickers in a twist. Somewhere in the middle the facts are there, it just seems some people don't want to see them.
BrabusMog said:
These petty arguments are in really bad taste. It seems to me that the people who are avidly pro-airshow hide behind cleverly worded arguments that absolve them of any burden of proof to back up their statements, and the people such as myself who are uncomfortable that so many innocent and non-involved people died for no reason are annoyed at their attitude, especially the dismissive nature of many posters.
Nah No ones saying thatI think youve misread some posters position (not sure which ones) then got annoyed with the attitude you think they have rather than what they really think
Never mind. It'll all gradually come out in the wash
A fair bit of the thread that I've read seems to be about 'blame' and whether the investigators etc. should or should not be looking to apportion blame. The report itself seems to raise issues with some of the pilot's actions and the maintenance of the aircraft. How does this square with the view on liability by the insurers? I'm sure I've read that there have been payments made to families of those killed. How does that work? Who insures the plane? I don't think is was owned by the pilot - does he have insurance, does the owner (if not the pilot) have the insurance? Do the show organisers have the insurance? This of course assumes that it is insurers that have paid out.
I only ask the question as insurers of e.g. cars seem very keen to establish liability (aka blame) so that they either pay out or don't.
Apologies in advance if this is a bit dim or simplistic - my knowledge of air shows only extends to 'blimey, that was noisy/fast/scary' and a huge admiration for the people that fly the 'planes!
I only ask the question as insurers of e.g. cars seem very keen to establish liability (aka blame) so that they either pay out or don't.
Apologies in advance if this is a bit dim or simplistic - my knowledge of air shows only extends to 'blimey, that was noisy/fast/scary' and a huge admiration for the people that fly the 'planes!
The organisers of the show would have had public liability insurance for several million
they would initially pay out regardless of 'blame' on the basis that this was an 'accident' that happened during the show
if someone is then found to be at fault, the show's insurers could then attempt to claim from them or their insurers
unless there is some kind of indemnity in place that the show's insurer's deal with any claims regardless of what happened.
they would initially pay out regardless of 'blame' on the basis that this was an 'accident' that happened during the show
if someone is then found to be at fault, the show's insurers could then attempt to claim from them or their insurers
unless there is some kind of indemnity in place that the show's insurer's deal with any claims regardless of what happened.
And that explains one fascination with determination of 'blame' - tens of millions of pounds swing on it.
If I have £1M accidental death cover with Company X and I'm killed accidentally - like when a Hawker Hunter lands on me - Company X will pay my beneficiary £1M. They got that money from all the premiums they collected from everyone else but never had to pay out on. If Official Blame is then found to lie with Party Y, does Company X claim it back from them?
If I have £1M accidental death cover with Company X and I'm killed accidentally - like when a Hawker Hunter lands on me - Company X will pay my beneficiary £1M. They got that money from all the premiums they collected from everyone else but never had to pay out on. If Official Blame is then found to lie with Party Y, does Company X claim it back from them?
SydneyBridge said:
The organisers of the show would have had public liability insurance for several million
they would initially pay out regardless of 'blame' on the basis that this was an 'accident' that happened during the show
if someone is then found to be at fault, the show's insurers could then attempt to claim from them or their insurers
unless there is some kind of indemnity in place that the show's insurer's deal with any claims regardless of what happened.
I can't really see it working that way. Surely the organisers public liability insurance would, at most, cover people at the 'arena' who have paid to be there, not people going about their business in a public place? The plane didn't belong to the organisers and they weren't flying it. I honestly can't see insurers paying out on the basis of "oh well, we'll pick up tab, and then maybe see if we can get someone else to stump up later".they would initially pay out regardless of 'blame' on the basis that this was an 'accident' that happened during the show
if someone is then found to be at fault, the show's insurers could then attempt to claim from them or their insurers
unless there is some kind of indemnity in place that the show's insurer's deal with any claims regardless of what happened.
Anyone with experience of airshows know who owns what, who insures what and what that insurance covers?
Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff