Crash at Shoreham Air show
Discussion
aeropilot said:
12000hrs flying airliners is not experience for flying swept wing high performance ex-mil jets.
He only had 43 hrs Hunter time in the 10 years since he first flew it.
Shoreham was his 6th display in the Hunter for 2015, and he'd only flown ONE practice display at the start of the season. He'd only flown just 2 displays and 2 practices, the year before in 2014, and didn't fly the Hunter at all in 2013.
That's not the CV of 'one of the best pilots in the country'.
Flying airliners and homebuilds is not the same as flying a Hunter. That's not his fault, that's the fault of the CAA. And that's not even mentioning the massive near miss he had flying the JP at Southport Airshow, which was an aircraft he had 900 hrs flying time in...!!
The fact is even before the accident there were people that thought he shouldn't be flying a Hunter in displays, but, again, that's the fault of the CAA, and/or the aircraft owners, not the pilot.
When you put it like that it's easy to see that this whole episode was a much needed wake up call for the CAA. Ordinarily I would agree with people that call them Campaign Against Aviation but they really didn't have a grip of the ex- military fast jet sector at all. He only had 43 hrs Hunter time in the 10 years since he first flew it.
Shoreham was his 6th display in the Hunter for 2015, and he'd only flown ONE practice display at the start of the season. He'd only flown just 2 displays and 2 practices, the year before in 2014, and didn't fly the Hunter at all in 2013.
That's not the CV of 'one of the best pilots in the country'.
Flying airliners and homebuilds is not the same as flying a Hunter. That's not his fault, that's the fault of the CAA. And that's not even mentioning the massive near miss he had flying the JP at Southport Airshow, which was an aircraft he had 900 hrs flying time in...!!
The fact is even before the accident there were people that thought he shouldn't be flying a Hunter in displays, but, again, that's the fault of the CAA, and/or the aircraft owners, not the pilot.
It was clear with the Southport incident that he was not ahead of the aeroplane at all. With 900 hours on the JP he should have known about their really strong tendency to nose-down when inverted or with a high roll rate. That was an opportunity missed.
The defence of cognitive impairment , despite being utter cobblers, suggests that he should have been aware of his own limitations and not been flying a hunter in a display. Unless we are supposed to believe he suffered an isolated and unforeseeable incident at only 4g for a few seconds, in which case he wasn't fit to fly the display ( and was reckless) ?
If I ever need a brief I will look for his!!
Richie Slow said:
aeropilot said:
12000hrs flying airliners is not experience for flying swept wing high performance ex-mil jets.
He only had 43 hrs Hunter time in the 10 years since he first flew it.
Shoreham was his 6th display in the Hunter for 2015, and he'd only flown ONE practice display at the start of the season. He'd only flown just 2 displays and 2 practices, the year before in 2014, and didn't fly the Hunter at all in 2013.
That's not the CV of 'one of the best pilots in the country'.
Flying airliners and homebuilds is not the same as flying a Hunter. That's not his fault, that's the fault of the CAA. And that's not even mentioning the massive near miss he had flying the JP at Southport Airshow, which was an aircraft he had 900 hrs flying time in...!!
The fact is even before the accident there were people that thought he shouldn't be flying a Hunter in displays, but, again, that's the fault of the CAA, and/or the aircraft owners, not the pilot.
When you put it like that it's easy to see that this whole episode was a much needed wake up call for the CAA. Ordinarily I would agree with people that call them Campaign Against Aviation but they really didn't have a grip of the ex- military fast jet sector at all. He only had 43 hrs Hunter time in the 10 years since he first flew it.
Shoreham was his 6th display in the Hunter for 2015, and he'd only flown ONE practice display at the start of the season. He'd only flown just 2 displays and 2 practices, the year before in 2014, and didn't fly the Hunter at all in 2013.
That's not the CV of 'one of the best pilots in the country'.
Flying airliners and homebuilds is not the same as flying a Hunter. That's not his fault, that's the fault of the CAA. And that's not even mentioning the massive near miss he had flying the JP at Southport Airshow, which was an aircraft he had 900 hrs flying time in...!!
The fact is even before the accident there were people that thought he shouldn't be flying a Hunter in displays, but, again, that's the fault of the CAA, and/or the aircraft owners, not the pilot.
Its a bloody shame, but there we go.
OutInTheShed said:
Was it ever really a good idea to hire a superannuated bunch of wingco's to do stunts over a major public road?
That's not the issue, if the displays are suitable for the area. The M11 is arguable more busy, and right next to the end of Duxford's runway, as was main roads at many other airfields where displays have been held (Waddington, Alconbury etc) The question is was doing full loops or what ever Hill described his fatal manoevre appropriate for such a venue? That's down the organisers, and the pilot. Too many already lost from not pulling up out of loops at displays over the years.I had a look at an old Hunter display with in cockpit footage that the late, great Mark Hanna did in the OFMC Hunter at Duxford in the 90's, and it was interesting to see that Mark didn't do full loops, but once inverted at the top he rolled through 180 and then dived down, keeping the energy up all the time. Mark had flown the Hunter during his RAF service, so had lots of hours on it as well.
From what I remember as well, the display organisers had arranged with highways/local council to set the lights at permanent green at the junction during the display as incoming roads to be blocked off, as per previous years, so as not to have stationary traffic under display but for some reason (not ever seen that reason stated) this didn't happen. That's outside display organisers control, but again, no one has been held to account over that it seems.
aeropilot said:
From what I remember as well, the display organisers had arranged with highways/local council to set the lights at permanent green at the junction during the display as incoming roads to be blocked off, as per previous years, so as not to have stationary traffic under display but for some reason (not ever seen that reason stated) this didn't happen. That's outside display organisers control, but again, no one has been held to account over that it seems.
Can't speak to the first part but I can say this part is categorically not the case. I know this as I was there, driving though the junction minutes before the crash. The traffic was backed up to Lancing, waiting to get past the lights.President Merkin said:
aeropilot said:
From what I remember as well, the display organisers had arranged with highways/local council to set the lights at permanent green at the junction during the display as incoming roads to be blocked off, as per previous years, so as not to have stationary traffic under display but for some reason (not ever seen that reason stated) this didn't happen. That's outside display organisers control, but again, no one has been held to account over that it seems.
Can't speak to the first part but I can say this part is categorically not the case. I know this as I was there, driving though the junction minutes before the crash. The traffic was backed up to Lancing, waiting to get past the lights.It's a tiresome thread diversion but for the record, the airshow would typically see the right turn lane at the eastbound airport junction blocked off, obliging airshow traffic to come off at the next junction, a few hundred yards on & rejoin the A27 westbound where there is a filter lane to the airport. This was the case as far back as I can remember.
On the day in question, they altered things to allow eastbound traffic to turn right into the airport, thus forcing the lights to operate as normal. It struck me as odd, as being a local and moreover an airport tenant, I knew this would cause a traffic jam, which I became caught up in. And as I got through the junction a few minutes before the crash, it's kind of stuck in my mind all these years, as you might expect.
On the day in question, they altered things to allow eastbound traffic to turn right into the airport, thus forcing the lights to operate as normal. It struck me as odd, as being a local and moreover an airport tenant, I knew this would cause a traffic jam, which I became caught up in. And as I got through the junction a few minutes before the crash, it's kind of stuck in my mind all these years, as you might expect.
President Merkin said:
It's a tiresome thread diversion but for the record, the airshow would typically see the right turn lane at the eastbound airport junction blocked off, obliging airshow traffic to come off at the next junction, a few hundred yards on & rejoin the A27 westbound where there is a filter lane to the airport. This was the case as far back as I can remember.
On the day in question, they altered things to allow eastbound traffic to turn right into the airport, thus forcing the lights to operate as normal. It struck me as odd, as being a local and moreover an airport tenant, I knew this would cause a traffic jam, which I became caught up in. And as I got through the junction a few minutes before the crash, it's kind of stuck in my mind all these years, as you might expect.
Hardly tiresome; if there hadn't been a queue of stationary vehicles the death toll would have been smaller. Who made that decision to alter the plan and why?On the day in question, they altered things to allow eastbound traffic to turn right into the airport, thus forcing the lights to operate as normal. It struck me as odd, as being a local and moreover an airport tenant, I knew this would cause a traffic jam, which I became caught up in. And as I got through the junction a few minutes before the crash, it's kind of stuck in my mind all these years, as you might expect.
hidetheelephants said:
President Merkin said:
It's a tiresome thread diversion but for the record, the airshow would typically see the right turn lane at the eastbound airport junction blocked off, obliging airshow traffic to come off at the next junction, a few hundred yards on & rejoin the A27 westbound where there is a filter lane to the airport. This was the case as far back as I can remember.
On the day in question, they altered things to allow eastbound traffic to turn right into the airport, thus forcing the lights to operate as normal. It struck me as odd, as being a local and moreover an airport tenant, I knew this would cause a traffic jam, which I became caught up in. And as I got through the junction a few minutes before the crash, it's kind of stuck in my mind all these years, as you might expect.
Hardly tiresome; if there hadn't been a queue of stationary vehicles the death toll would have been smaller. Who made that decision to alter the plan and why?On the day in question, they altered things to allow eastbound traffic to turn right into the airport, thus forcing the lights to operate as normal. It struck me as odd, as being a local and moreover an airport tenant, I knew this would cause a traffic jam, which I became caught up in. And as I got through the junction a few minutes before the crash, it's kind of stuck in my mind all these years, as you might expect.
While I hadn't quite remembered the actual details, which have now been cleared up, it is still clear then that something changed from the norm, or what had been agreed, which potentially consequences in the event of an incident, which then sadly occurred.
I forget which thread it was but recently there was a discussion about corporate responsibility and that executives need to consider their decisions with the thought that they or their boss might one day have to explain why a decision was made to a judge. Surprising this wasn't interrogated by the coroner at the time, it's a finding of fact.
In the event, the crash zone mostly missed the eastbound carriageway. That's not to say slowing down the traffic wasn't an error or even foreseeably poor planning but there has been a queue of traffic on the westbound carriageway since forever. In essence, if you smash a jet into an A road during a popular airshow, you're going to kill people. Lots of people. Not really possible to create a sterile zone and have people attend the airport.
President Merkin said:
In the event, the crash zone mostly missed the eastbound carriageway. That's not to say slowing down the traffic wasn't an error or even foreseeably poor planning but there has been a queue of traffic on the westbound carriageway since forever. In essence, if you smash a jet into an A road during a popular airshow, you're going to kill people. Lots of people. Not really possible to create a sterile zone and have people attend the airport.
True.To end up where he did, way off the display line, it was still the wrong manoeuvre in that type of a/c, for that venue......and then badly executed to boot.
Hence why I said tiresome diversion. It's very peripheral to events when you consider the A27 is a main arterial route which was never going to be closed & that there are only two ways in & out of the airport. No matter what they did with the junction, it would have always been busy with people.
If you want an unhappy irony, there were always cheapskates who'd hang around the pub over the road from the airport rather than pay to get in. A few of them were among the dead.
If you want an unhappy irony, there were always cheapskates who'd hang around the pub over the road from the airport rather than pay to get in. A few of them were among the dead.
aeropilot said:
President Merkin said:
In the event, the crash zone mostly missed the eastbound carriageway. That's not to say slowing down the traffic wasn't an error or even foreseeably poor planning but there has been a queue of traffic on the westbound carriageway since forever. In essence, if you smash a jet into an A road during a popular airshow, you're going to kill people. Lots of people. Not really possible to create a sterile zone and have people attend the airport.
True.To end up where he did, way off the display line, it was still the wrong manoeuvre in that type of a/c, for that venue......and then badly executed to boot.
In this case, if AH was on the display line ( or near to it) he would have crashed onto the open part of the airfield and probably caused less harm to life and limb. How he managed to 'steer' towards the road and then chose to attempt an ejection in the midst of the crash shows him to have more regard for his own skin than anybody else's. If that's what happened of course, he says he can't remember!
The CAA response to pretty much lock down Hunters and other fast jets in the wake of this has deprived us all of seeing displays by the skilled and responsible teams that pretty much self-regulated themselves successfully for many years. Our air show circuit has paid the price for sure. After Ramstein we saw lots of much needed rules come into force, and not without some resistance, but those rules enhanced safety for everybody and was a little bit of good that came out of a tragic event. I don't see any good ever coming from this tragedy.
President Merkin said:
Hence why I said tiresome diversion. It's very peripheral to events when you consider the A27 is a main arterial route which was never going to be closed & that there are only two ways in & out of the airport. No matter what they did with the junction, it would have always been busy with people.
If you want an unhappy irony, there were always cheapskates who'd hang around the pub over the road from the airport rather than pay to get in. A few of them were among the dead.
Frankly that's a pretty disgusting allegation: I know the family of one of the victims who might be who you're referring to, & nothing could be further from the truth.If you want an unhappy irony, there were always cheapskates who'd hang around the pub over the road from the airport rather than pay to get in. A few of them were among the dead.
CanAm said:
That junction and that airport entrance were closed a few months ago with a new roundabout constructed a few hundred yards to the west, giving airport access to both east and westbound traffic on the A27.
It might have reduced the fatalities a little
Possibly, That whole thing is a legacy of the aborted Ikea development that morphed into a housing estate. Likely that no matter what the road layout was, a well fuled jet hitting it at speed would have had the same outcome.It might have reduced the fatalities a little
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