Concorde to fly again ?
Discussion
northwest monkey said:
Daft question, but what is the difference between the Vulcan still flying (just) and the Concorde not flying?
Is it just parts availability etc., or is there more to it than that?
A really daft question - would it be possible to fit a replacement (different) engine, slap in some modern electronics, new tyres & away we go?
Ok, it wouldn't be supersonic but would look cool at airshows & with the Vulcan going the public need something to get behind.
Partly due to parts, a whole load were obtained with some bagged zero hour engines for the Vulcan. There are no spares left for Concorde. The Vulcan is very basic compared to Concorde, which amongst other things had very early, analog Fly by wire, complex inlet ramps, carbon antilock brakes etc. It is a world away from the Vulcan in technology terms.Is it just parts availability etc., or is there more to it than that?
A really daft question - would it be possible to fit a replacement (different) engine, slap in some modern electronics, new tyres & away we go?
Ok, it wouldn't be supersonic but would look cool at airshows & with the Vulcan going the public need something to get behind.
Fitting different engines is not an option, look how successful fitting new engines to the Nimrod MRA4 turned out
Even if you could fit them, you would likely have to fit a completely new fuel system, new electronics, new fly by wire system, and it could affect handling if the engines are a different weight or size, requiring redesign of the airframe. You would them have to go through extensive testing, and certification which would be virtually impossible, and astronomically expensive.
I think I am correct in saying, fitting new larger engines to the Nimrod, caused the weight to go up with the larger wing that was required. This caused weight problems on the nose gear, and the extra wing span made the rudder ineffective. Additional work had to be done on the flight control systems to improve the handling. The whole project cost billions, and still wasn't fully sorted before it was scrapped.
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 22 September 23:55
Simpo Two said:
Can they simply 'not allow' something to happen?
'I'm sorry, we're not going to allow this'
I'm not sure they could even if they wanted to. Lots of information and data will by now be in legacy unsupported format, or on 5 year retention (which has now passed). Key "tacit knowledge" will have retired, and project teams disbanded.'I'm sorry, we're not going to allow this'
RoverP6B said:
Nimrod 4 was scarily reminiscent of Nimrod AEW. We never learn!
and made thr assumption that an aged aircraft, effectively hand buitl , then serviced repaired andm odified by the military - some times in austere conditions , would be as standardised and easy to modify as a 10 year old biz jet or A320 class aircraft... anonymous said:
[redacted]
This puzzles me - Why are there 'no spares' left for Concorde? (I'm assuming that Supraman meant 'no spares whatsoever' rather than 'no spare engines').This is a plane that was suddenly withdrawn from service by two major airlines, and there were no spares on the shelf? - I realise that a lot of the parts were bespoke, but it seems a little remiss to be operating a fleet of aircraft with no access to spare parts. If there were spares, what has happened to them since the grounding of the aircraft?
WelshChris said:
This puzzles me - Why are there 'no spares' left for Concorde? (I'm assuming that Supraman meant 'no spares whatsoever' rather than 'no spare engines').
This is a plane that was suddenly withdrawn from service by two major airlines, and there were no spares on the shelf? - I realise that a lot of the parts were bespoke, but it seems a little remiss to be operating a fleet of aircraft with no access to spare parts. If there were spares, what has happened to them since the grounding of the aircraft?
Deliberately disposed of by BA/AF immediately after end of service to prevent exactly this situation.This is a plane that was suddenly withdrawn from service by two major airlines, and there were no spares on the shelf? - I realise that a lot of the parts were bespoke, but it seems a little remiss to be operating a fleet of aircraft with no access to spare parts. If there were spares, what has happened to them since the grounding of the aircraft?
WelshChris said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
This puzzles me - Why are there 'no spares' left for Concorde? (I'm assuming that Supraman meant 'no spares whatsoever' rather than 'no spare engines').This is a plane that was suddenly withdrawn from service by two major airlines, and there were no spares on the shelf? - I realise that a lot of the parts were bespoke, but it seems a little remiss to be operating a fleet of aircraft with no access to spare parts. If there were spares, what has happened to them since the grounding of the aircraft?
MartG said:
If the aircraft is no longer flying, and there is no possibility of it flying in the future, why waste storage space keeping a load of bespoke spares that are no good for any other aircraft ?
Good point well made 
I guess I was assuming that BA and Air France were inefficient - perish the thought.
mph1977 said:
aeropilot said:
Deliberately disposed of by BA/AF immediately after end of service to prevent exactly this situation.
or just removed from their stock control systems ... Shirley there must have been loads of spare engines etc etc to run a fleet of what 16? concordes I cannot see all of that being auctioned off just as trinkets, and who the hell buys ready to fit new old stock Olympus engines anyway? and if it was all sold off then someone bought it, and it all still exists somewhere!
From what I understand none have ever been sold, just loaned out, so unless BA or Air France are prepared to let one or more go then it's a non starter anyway.
From what I understand none have ever been sold, just loaned out, so unless BA or Air France are prepared to let one or more go then it's a non starter anyway.
Edited by PAUL500 on Wednesday 23 September 21:07
Mave said:
V8 Fettler said:
Mave said:
V8 Fettler said:
I doubt if Lockheed or similar would need Airbus SST expertise to resurrect Concorde.
Nothing is impossible (apparently)... but don't underestimate how hard it is to back-engineer the design, manufacture and operation of something as complex as Concorde without any access to the original design intent.Could Lockheed design something like Concorde from scratch? No doubt. Could Lockheed write all the necessary paperwork for something they didn't design? Much more sketchy....
PAUL500 said:
Shirley there must have been loads of spare engines etc etc to run a fleet of what 16? concordes I cannot see all of that being auctioned off just as trinkets, and who the hell buys ready to fit new old stock Olympus engines anyway? and if it was all sold off then someone bought it, and it all still exists somewhere!
From what I understand none have ever been sold, just loaned out, so unless BA or Air France are prepared to let one or more go then it's a non starter anyway.
You are aware of the scrap metal markets I presume?From what I understand none have ever been sold, just loaned out, so unless BA or Air France are prepared to let one or more go then it's a non starter anyway.
Edited by PAUL500 on Wednesday 23 September 21:07
Stickyfinger said:
Ordered by committee, managed by committee, deemed to expensive by committee, scrapped by committee,
paid for by you.
....quite normal
Doesn't just happen in the field of defence procurement either, in my other existence as husband, pageturner etc to an eminent organist, I've become aware of certain church organs which fit the same description - too many people each making competing demands and the result ends up being neither fish, flesh nor good red herring.paid for by you.
....quite normal
In the case of the Nimrod, they were still flying it on a Comet 4 type certificate, it was still basically a product of c.1950, and as such hopeless for the purpose they envisaged. If they wanted to use an old British jetliner, at least the VC10 remains a great aeroplane...
Even if there were Olympus engines lying around, would they be bagged and properly stored with all the correct paperwork?
Very unlikely, after all of this time.
You would also need support from Rolls Royce even if you had spare engines you could use.
You could forget overhauling any engines, RR will not overhaul the Vulcan's ones so would equally not touch Concorde's ones. I doubt there are many staff that are left with experience of these types of engine, let alone the tooling to undertake such a task.
Very unlikely, after all of this time.
You would also need support from Rolls Royce even if you had spare engines you could use.
You could forget overhauling any engines, RR will not overhaul the Vulcan's ones so would equally not touch Concorde's ones. I doubt there are many staff that are left with experience of these types of engine, let alone the tooling to undertake such a task.
V8 Fettler said:
Mave said:
V8 Fettler said:
Mave said:
V8 Fettler said:
I doubt if Lockheed or similar would need Airbus SST expertise to resurrect Concorde.
Nothing is impossible (apparently)... but don't underestimate how hard it is to back-engineer the design, manufacture and operation of something as complex as Concorde without any access to the original design intent.Could Lockheed design something like Concorde from scratch? No doubt. Could Lockheed write all the necessary paperwork for something they didn't design? Much more sketchy....
Mave said:
What criteria are you going to test and inspect against? You borescope something and find corrosion or a crack or a bit of fretting - what next? Does it need to be fixed or not? Who's going to work up the repair scheme for a part of an unknown material subjected to an unknown duty?
Some of the Vulcan people reckon they do have the equipment and expertise to overhaul and check one of their engines even if they aren't officially qualified to do it.But parts and experts for Vulcan engines were presumably far more common than for Concorde engines.
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