Airline Pilots..advice for my lad please
Discussion
University?
You could also look at it like this...
Post 9/11 I know plenty who couldn't get jobs/ made redundant.
Try going down to the Dole Queue with nothing more than a professional pilots licence and looking for work. Very impressive having such a licence but feck all use academically.
I wish I had gone to Uni to give me a back up plan. If it all goes wrong I have nothing to fall back on.
You could also look at it like this...
Post 9/11 I know plenty who couldn't get jobs/ made redundant.
Try going down to the Dole Queue with nothing more than a professional pilots licence and looking for work. Very impressive having such a licence but feck all use academically.
I wish I had gone to Uni to give me a back up plan. If it all goes wrong I have nothing to fall back on.
Chuck328 said:
University?
You could also look at it like this...
Post 9/11 I know plenty who couldn't get jobs/ made redundant.
Try going down to the Dole Queue with nothing more than a professional pilots licence and looking for work. Very impressive having such a licence but feck all use academically.
I wish I had gone to Uni to give me a back up plan. If it all goes wrong I have nothing to fall back on.
True, though I just had no interest in going. I was sick to death of working in a supermarket for peanuts and couldn't stomach another 3-5 years of that at university whilst I went on a course that I didn't really want to do.You could also look at it like this...
Post 9/11 I know plenty who couldn't get jobs/ made redundant.
Try going down to the Dole Queue with nothing more than a professional pilots licence and looking for work. Very impressive having such a licence but feck all use academically.
I wish I had gone to Uni to give me a back up plan. If it all goes wrong I have nothing to fall back on.
Chuck328 said:
University?
I wish I had gone to Uni to give me a back up plan. If it all goes wrong I have nothing to fall back on.
Again, I respectfully disagree. For me, it would be finish school at 18 and then spend at least a year applying for every cadet scheme going. You cannot underestimate the benefit of getting in early in this industry. I don't believe that a degree necessarily gives you something to fall back on, unless it is very specific such as a Doctor of medicine etc. How many degrees will still be relevant after a certain period of time passes?I wish I had gone to Uni to give me a back up plan. If it all goes wrong I have nothing to fall back on.
If you manage to land a job at one of the larger carriers then your employment contract may well include loss of licence payments which will allow you to retrain should you need to.
My advice will always be get in early and learn the selection procedures back-to-front of each prospective employer. Don't leave anything to chance.
pushthebutton said:
Again, I respectfully disagree. For me, it would be finish school at 18 and then spend at least a year applying for every cadet scheme going. You cannot underestimate the benefit of getting in early in this industry. I don't believe that a degree necessarily gives you something to fall back on, unless it is very specific such as a Doctor of medicine etc. How many degrees will still be relevant after a certain period of time passes?
If you manage to land a job at one of the larger carriers then your employment contract may well include loss of licence payments which will allow you to retrain should you need to.
My advice will always be get in early and learn the selection procedures back-to-front of each prospective employer. Don't leave anything to chance.
A few years in Uni is not going to adversely hinder you when it comes to that seniority list biding for trips or getting that command. Neither does loss of licence insurance help if you are made redundant (sure you can give yourself some form income protection etc). LL is typically medically related, as I'm sure you know.If you manage to land a job at one of the larger carriers then your employment contract may well include loss of licence payments which will allow you to retrain should you need to.
My advice will always be get in early and learn the selection procedures back-to-front of each prospective employer. Don't leave anything to chance.
Fair enough diving in right from an early age, it's exactly what I did, first flight (trial lesson) at 16!
I just feel that when it comes to job hunting to try get a new career going (should you give up - I know a few fATPLs that gave up looking for that first break) or tide you over till you do get that first job/re hired, having a formal academic qualification is going to help you far more than an ATPL.
By all means start a degree but the instant you get the chance to get training, leave.
You can get a degree at any time, whereas there may be only one chance of a cadetship.
Plenty of guys I know did part time degrees (sometimes second degrees, or masters and even MBAs) while working full time in the airlines. They are all more management types, and in most cases the kind of guys who don't think their flying job is the be all and end all.
You can get a degree at any time, whereas there may be only one chance of a cadetship.
Plenty of guys I know did part time degrees (sometimes second degrees, or masters and even MBAs) while working full time in the airlines. They are all more management types, and in most cases the kind of guys who don't think their flying job is the be all and end all.
kapiteinlangzaam said:
I would recommend a degree as well. If nothing else its a bloody important period for forming your adult 'self' and making good social connections.
A decent degree is never going to hurt your chances and is IMO still a useful thing to have. Of the 20+ pilots I know, all of them are degree educated.
Although that might be because you met the vast majority of that us At University ;-)A decent degree is never going to hurt your chances and is IMO still a useful thing to have. Of the 20+ pilots I know, all of them are degree educated.
Listen to this chap though, he speaks a lot of sense about the relative merits of flying vs ATC, I do the former and, whilst I still bloody love aeroplanes if I had the choice again I'm really not sure which direction I'd turn.
The thing about cadetships is that it doesn't really matter what your degree is in. You can teach anyone to pass the ground school subjects and to fly. I always advise people who are desperate to fly against doing Aero Engineering if they see that as they way to help them in. This is because if they don't get in, they will have put themselves through a tough degree in aero engineering which really isn't much specific use anywhere, except perhaps in the aero industry, which is a pretty s
tty industry. If your dream is to be a pilot, most other jobs in the aero industry - especially engineering - will be very unsatisfying. IMHO of course. I know a hell of a lot of pilots, hundreds, and two definitely have degrees in Aero Eng. That's fewer than the number of guys I know with degrees in Horticulture.
tty industry. If your dream is to be a pilot, most other jobs in the aero industry - especially engineering - will be very unsatisfying. IMHO of course. I know a hell of a lot of pilots, hundreds, and two definitely have degrees in Aero Eng. That's fewer than the number of guys I know with degrees in Horticulture. JuniorD said:
The thing about cadetships is that it doesn't really matter what your degree is in. You can teach anyone to pass the ground school subjects and to fly. I always advise people who are desperate to fly against doing Aero Engineering if they see that as they way to help them in. This is because if they don't get in, they will have put themselves through a tough degree in aero engineering which really isn't much specific use anywhere, except perhaps in the aero industry, which is a pretty stty industry. If your dream is to be a pilot, most other jobs in the aero industry - especially engineering - will be very unsatisfying. IMHO of course. I know a hell of a lot of pilots, hundreds, and two definitely have degrees in Aero Eng. That's fewer than the number of guys I know with degrees in Horticulture.
An Aero-Eng degree isn't useless, far from it. Every year I see students walking out of the door and into jobs. If you get a 2:1 with an accredited aero-engineering degree you would be hard pushed not to get a job! The degree is hugely transferable and opens many doors, seen students go into finance, accounting, management, consulting, automotive engineering... I know at least four commercial pilots who graduated in my year, and several more over the years since. Also the aero-engineering industry is far from 'stty industry. If your dream is to be a pilot, most other jobs in the aero industry - especially engineering - will be very unsatisfying. IMHO of course. I know a hell of a lot of pilots, hundreds, and two definitely have degrees in Aero Eng. That's fewer than the number of guys I know with degrees in Horticulture. tty', in fact I believe it's one of our strongest sectors in the UK who are crying out for engineers.I don't know the age of most of the contributors, but let's not forget that for people leaving sixth form now, a degree can represent a huge investment. It's not quite comparable to that of pilot training, but with tuition fees for a three-year degree alone able to cost £21k, it is much less of a thing that you can just 'do as a back up'. You have to really want that degree, or have a lot of money.
As for Cpt Slow's suggestion, I'm almost in an ideal position to comment on that, as I was an ATCO and am now training to be a commercial pilot. I say 'almost' because I haven't got any on-the-job experience of flying yet. ATC is great, and anyone that tells you otherwise most likely doesn't know what they're talking about. I imagine that being given the choice between the two would be a very difficult call. Ask me in six months and I'll tell you if my suspicions were correct.
Where KL's suggestion really comes into play though, is the back up that people are talking about. I have an Aero Eng degree with no industry experience whatsoever. I doubt anyone wants to employ me as an engineer. But I received free training (better in fact - I was paid) to be an ATCO, and have a licence which is a pretty rare commodity. Yes, the jobs are rare too, but if flying went wrong it probably stands me in better stead than the degree.
It is a great shame to say it, but if you want to be an airline pilot, I really would recommend applying for a course which is mentored by an airline i.e. they select you to work for that airline before you start training. It is pretty risky to spend the money without knowing if there will be anywhere for you to cut your teeth afterwards. Getting the nod from a flight school isn't enough - the only incentive they have to get you a job at the end is that it makes their employment statistics look better.
As for the "BA pilot turned Underground driver" thing - the only way I can see that they earned less in BA is if they were part time. Or there's always a chance that it's 'pub talk' (also known as bull st).
As for Cpt Slow's suggestion, I'm almost in an ideal position to comment on that, as I was an ATCO and am now training to be a commercial pilot. I say 'almost' because I haven't got any on-the-job experience of flying yet. ATC is great, and anyone that tells you otherwise most likely doesn't know what they're talking about. I imagine that being given the choice between the two would be a very difficult call. Ask me in six months and I'll tell you if my suspicions were correct.
Where KL's suggestion really comes into play though, is the back up that people are talking about. I have an Aero Eng degree with no industry experience whatsoever. I doubt anyone wants to employ me as an engineer. But I received free training (better in fact - I was paid) to be an ATCO, and have a licence which is a pretty rare commodity. Yes, the jobs are rare too, but if flying went wrong it probably stands me in better stead than the degree.
It is a great shame to say it, but if you want to be an airline pilot, I really would recommend applying for a course which is mentored by an airline i.e. they select you to work for that airline before you start training. It is pretty risky to spend the money without knowing if there will be anywhere for you to cut your teeth afterwards. Getting the nod from a flight school isn't enough - the only incentive they have to get you a job at the end is that it makes their employment statistics look better.
As for the "BA pilot turned Underground driver" thing - the only way I can see that they earned less in BA is if they were part time. Or there's always a chance that it's 'pub talk' (also known as bull s
t).Prawo Jazdy said:
As for the "BA pilot turned Underground driver" thing - the only way I can see that they earned less in BA is if they were part time. Or there's always a chance that it's 'pub talk' (also known as bull st).
I think people do it to discourage competition. I have friends who work as doctors and nurses, they're forever claiming they're better off working in a supermarket t).
Chuck328 said:
A few years in Uni is not going to adversely hinder you when it comes to that seniority list biding for trips or getting that command. Neither does loss of licence insurance help if you are made redundant (sure you can give yourself some form income protection etc). LL is typically medically related, as I'm sure you know.
If you are applying the sort of airline that is offering cadet schemes then I 100% believe that it will hinder both bidding for trips and getting your command. Taking a certain big British airline as an example - if that happens to be your cup of tea - a University degree starting around 4 years ago will have seen you lose over 1000 places on the seniority list. Recruitment next year will be 300+ people. Four years after you graduate the recruitment drive may well have stopped and the economy may be entering its next downturn. You can, of course, choose to self fund training at that point, but with no job at the end of it. After all that you'll be looking at the cost of a degree plus the cost of flying training as a debt, but with no job to start repayments.Entering either University or flying training at this point and I'd be going all out for any sponsorship scheme going in order to guarantee, as much as possible, a contract of employment at the end of it. If you are sure you want to fly as a job then I wouldn't recommend delaying applying any further.
With regard to loss of licence, I'm still using the analogy of having entered a big airline as a cadet and so, as long as you've entered at the start or during the middle of a recruitment drive, redundancy is less of a threat. In this case, the biggest threat to being unable to continue your career and having to retrain would be medically-driven loss of licence. In this case, the money can be used to re-train.
In the end this is where personal preference applies: I'd rather get in early via a cadet scheme and accept the risks associated with losing your job and re-training than go to University for 4 years to then start applications for a profession I was already sure I wanted to pursue. If I then wanted something to fall back on I'd start a degree with the comfort blanket of a reasonable monthly payslip.
Taking a sample size of one, I have a 'useful' degree to fall back on and it cost me about 1000 places on the seniority list. If I knew then what I know now...
Edited by pushthebutton on Thursday 8th October 21:40
Crush said:
Prawo Jazdy said:
As for the "BA pilot turned Underground driver" thing - the only way I can see that they earned less in BA is if they were part time. Or there's always a chance that it's 'pub talk' (also known as bull st).
I think people do it to discourage competition. I have friends who work as doctors and nurses, they're forever claiming they're better off working in a supermarket t).OK, he could have been bull shoiting but he seemed genuine to me.
This was about 10 years ago.
By the way there is no money in television. I'd be better off driving a lorry
PanzerCommander said:
Crush said:
100% ignore school advisors, they're only interested in you going to university to improve their stats 
Yep, he looked at me like I was insane when I said university was of no interest to me."School years are the best of your life" glad I realised it was bulls
t as I'd have committed suicide This topic comes up often.
If you are very certain you want to train as a pilot come what may, best off doing it as young as possible for very good seniority reasons, and as also noted, uni is expensive these days and if things go terribly wrong, you can always go afterwards anyway. This will not in all probability necessary anyway.
Get insured at the start of training to at least cover the cost of what you'll spend and a buffer for something of a B-plan if you can't fly for medical reasons.
I started my training just before 9-11 and out of my group of 15 or so classmates, I can only think of one individual who deserved to get a flying job and didn't. That was largely due to having a young family, with the inertia that that brings. In fact, that's another thing to bear in mind, better to be 100% flexible were you are prepared to work when chasing that first job, and that's easier when young, free & single.
People say the job the job isn't what it was and to a degree that's true, but you name in industry which hasn't attempted to trim the package for new hires. The rewards are still there in the long term, pensions not withstanding, and after over a decade of airline flying, I still get a big buzz at going to work and what else in the world of work can compare to have finger tip control of getting a $100m, 100T machine in the air with a couple of hundred people with you.
BALPA offer extensive advice (I know this as I volunteer my time to help aspiring and new pilots) - much better to talk to them than relying exclusively on Internet advice.
If you are very certain you want to train as a pilot come what may, best off doing it as young as possible for very good seniority reasons, and as also noted, uni is expensive these days and if things go terribly wrong, you can always go afterwards anyway. This will not in all probability necessary anyway.
Get insured at the start of training to at least cover the cost of what you'll spend and a buffer for something of a B-plan if you can't fly for medical reasons.
I started my training just before 9-11 and out of my group of 15 or so classmates, I can only think of one individual who deserved to get a flying job and didn't. That was largely due to having a young family, with the inertia that that brings. In fact, that's another thing to bear in mind, better to be 100% flexible were you are prepared to work when chasing that first job, and that's easier when young, free & single.
People say the job the job isn't what it was and to a degree that's true, but you name in industry which hasn't attempted to trim the package for new hires. The rewards are still there in the long term, pensions not withstanding, and after over a decade of airline flying, I still get a big buzz at going to work and what else in the world of work can compare to have finger tip control of getting a $100m, 100T machine in the air with a couple of hundred people with you.
BALPA offer extensive advice (I know this as I volunteer my time to help aspiring and new pilots) - much better to talk to them than relying exclusively on Internet advice.
First of all do the Class 1 medical from the CAA.
Secondly, go and visit the various flying schools that are around and see what they have to offer.
Determination is the key for passing and a bit of luck.
I passed my licence (mid 2005) and then ended up in Argos on the checkout for a few months whilst doing some flying instructing. I was then offered a job with the low cost Irish airline (best start in flying life I could have got despite criticism) and now I fly a Boeing 777 for a middle eastern airline.
Gone are the days of good pensions and long life careers but play your cards right and keep working hard at it is my best advice.
Secondly, go and visit the various flying schools that are around and see what they have to offer.
Determination is the key for passing and a bit of luck.
I passed my licence (mid 2005) and then ended up in Argos on the checkout for a few months whilst doing some flying instructing. I was then offered a job with the low cost Irish airline (best start in flying life I could have got despite criticism) and now I fly a Boeing 777 for a middle eastern airline.
Gone are the days of good pensions and long life careers but play your cards right and keep working hard at it is my best advice.
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