Any Laser Dinghy Experts out there?
Discussion
Seriously though Chris, bearing in mind my previous comment on Tactics, in the 2nd diagram if it were a committee boat biased line if I'm right why hasn't Boat B got itself into the money seats as it can hammer the line at full chat and is the most windward boat therefore in control of the Fleet?
Because Boat A can just stuff B up into the committee boat and then B would be doing turns anyway and spat out the back of the fleet so whats the point risking that. I agree Boat B would be in the driving seat if there was enough room between A and the committee boat without any chance A could push you up in to the committee boat. But in your diagram it doesn't look like there is enough space to get through with zero risk.
Ideally in your diagram 2 I'd want to be boat A with a gap to leeward to accelerate in to a few seconds before the gun. Protecting a gap to leeward to accelerate into as well as covering yourself to make sure nobody sails over the top of you is the holy grail of starting. As well as hitting the right part of the line at max speed the second the gun goes off of course....
If I was Boat A and I hadn't stuffed B in to the committee boat I'd be making it extra hard for B to sail over the top of me (pinching a bit or working upwind as hard as possible) hoping for them to tack off early to clear your lane as you cant tack on to port if they are sat just to windward and behind you. That way you then have options. Likely there will also be boats to leeward but in front of you that can't tack until you do (because of the line bias) and so if you've forced B to tack early you are pretty close to controlling the fleet and can tack when you want, when you get a shift (or in my case when my thighs are burning so hard I need to tack to relieve the hiking pain).
I know you're pretty handy in your laser, but other than instructing have you ever sailed/raced in a double hander? Might be worth seeing if you can get a ride as a crew in a fireball with Iain or another double hander with someone else clued up and do a few races. That way you can kind of see/discuss options with the other person and would possibly polish up on a few tactics. Reading theory is ok but if you're sailing singlehanders I guess its tricky to know what you should/could do in any situation as, especially at the start, it can all happen so quickly and you can't always appreciate the position everyone else is in and you rarely get the same situation twice.
p.s. Hopefully house renovation will be done soon so will be able to get back out on the water. If you'd be interested in doing some races in my B14 let me know.
Ideally in your diagram 2 I'd want to be boat A with a gap to leeward to accelerate in to a few seconds before the gun. Protecting a gap to leeward to accelerate into as well as covering yourself to make sure nobody sails over the top of you is the holy grail of starting. As well as hitting the right part of the line at max speed the second the gun goes off of course....
If I was Boat A and I hadn't stuffed B in to the committee boat I'd be making it extra hard for B to sail over the top of me (pinching a bit or working upwind as hard as possible) hoping for them to tack off early to clear your lane as you cant tack on to port if they are sat just to windward and behind you. That way you then have options. Likely there will also be boats to leeward but in front of you that can't tack until you do (because of the line bias) and so if you've forced B to tack early you are pretty close to controlling the fleet and can tack when you want, when you get a shift (or in my case when my thighs are burning so hard I need to tack to relieve the hiking pain).
I know you're pretty handy in your laser, but other than instructing have you ever sailed/raced in a double hander? Might be worth seeing if you can get a ride as a crew in a fireball with Iain or another double hander with someone else clued up and do a few races. That way you can kind of see/discuss options with the other person and would possibly polish up on a few tactics. Reading theory is ok but if you're sailing singlehanders I guess its tricky to know what you should/could do in any situation as, especially at the start, it can all happen so quickly and you can't always appreciate the position everyone else is in and you rarely get the same situation twice.
p.s. Hopefully house renovation will be done soon so will be able to get back out on the water. If you'd be interested in doing some races in my B14 let me know.
Edited by chrisga on Monday 9th November 13:59
How can you get to the latter situation without passing through the former?
Once there, whether its an obstruction is largely irrelevant, both parties have an onus to avoid a collision regardless but the windward boat should have bailed out long ago by now and as the leeward boat I'd give them room to avoid the collision, protest them for being there in the first place and expect them to tack off out of the way ASAP.
Once there, whether its an obstruction is largely irrelevant, both parties have an onus to avoid a collision regardless but the windward boat should have bailed out long ago by now and as the leeward boat I'd give them room to avoid the collision, protest them for being there in the first place and expect them to tack off out of the way ASAP.
Here's Mr Goodison's take on upwind in a heavy blow in a Laser.
My tips would be just concentrate on keeping the boat flat, don't worry about easing over a meter of sheet. Go as hard as possible on the vang and dunno but leave about 50mm gap on the boom so there is a little bit of shape in the outhaul.
My tips would be just concentrate on keeping the boat flat, don't worry about easing over a meter of sheet. Go as hard as possible on the vang and dunno but leave about 50mm gap on the boom so there is a little bit of shape in the outhaul.
alistairolsen said:
How can you get to the latter situation without passing through the former?
Once there, whether its an obstruction is largely irrelevant, both parties have an onus to avoid a collision regardless but the windward boat should have bailed out long ago by now and as the leeward boat I'd give them room to avoid the collision, protest them for being there in the first place and expect them to tack off out of the way ASAP.
Quite easily really, if A doesn't shut the door early enough or B has better boat speed, don't forget that in luffing up boat A can't go head to wind or tack, I'll admit it's aggressive elbows out sailing but if it's the difference between hitting the line at full chat and in clear wind for and in control of the 1st beat then worth th effort (btw i have had my understanding of the rule verified)Once there, whether its an obstruction is largely irrelevant, both parties have an onus to avoid a collision regardless but the windward boat should have bailed out long ago by now and as the leeward boat I'd give them room to avoid the collision, protest them for being there in the first place and expect them to tack off out of the way ASAP.
IforB said:
Here's Mr Goodison's take on upwind in a heavy blow in a Laser.
My tips would be just concentrate on keeping the boat flat, don't worry about easing over a meter of sheet. Go as hard as possible on the vang and dunno but leave about 50mm gap on the boom so there is a little bit of shape in the outhaul.
Superb, well wish me luck, Sundays looks like 20+knots gusting 40!!My tips would be just concentrate on keeping the boat flat, don't worry about easing over a meter of sheet. Go as hard as possible on the vang and dunno but leave about 50mm gap on the boom so there is a little bit of shape in the outhaul.
My planned technique will be;
- Use my #2 sail,
- crank the vang & cunningham & outhaul to the max.
- hikehard and then some
- Sailing slightly off the wind so as not to pinch
- anticipate, ease, hike, trim
I will report back after the races!
,kOK so went out today and lived to tell the tale.
The wind averaged 30kts with a max gust of 49kts so "pretty fruity".
I will be honest and say that I did wimp out a little and used the Gaydial but I was 1 of only 2 boats in the race, the other being a Laser with a full rig sailed by probably the best all round sailor in the club.
Even thought i knew I would be discarding I decided to go out and practice in line with plan.
I hiked and then hiked a little more, I sailed off the wind although I had to remind myself to at some points and not to pinch for the windward mark.
I watched for the gusts, eased before them, hiked more and then trimmed the sail one I was in there to get the squirt of acceleration, when I timed this squirt with the wave I could feel I was on the money and I ploughed through the wave and came out the other side faster than I went in!!
The 1st lap was good, I kept the other Laser honest, ahead as we were going into the windward mark, but he got me on the mark rounding, downwind there was very little in it and when I saw him "chicken Gybe" I decided to follow suit and we nailed it in to the leaward mark then it was a bit fetchy back to the gate.
I made up water on the beat up to the 1st mark with the hike, ease, hike some more, trim technique but screwed up a tack and had a little dip, not a swim just felt my back get wet before I got the power back on.
On the reach across the water, I saw him go in hard and fast as a gust hit... this actually bent his top section sideways I later found out so he DNF'd!
I saw the gust closing in to me so stupidly eased the main, damn bugger blast, windward capsize with me out of the back of the boat which then rited itself and sailed off and then capsized.
I started to swim chasing a boat being blown away from em but then saw one of our trusty safety boats coming so waited, he dropped me back to beside my boat and I righted and sailed off, gybed at full speed, fetched to the gate to win the race................. that was until I returned to shore and was asked "was I in immediate danger?" no, or "was I ill?" - No., "was I injured" - No......... So, bugger DSQ'd for external assistance!!
However, the whole purpose of the training was sailing off the wind, ease, hike trim seemed to pay dividends and morally I won!!
The wind averaged 30kts with a max gust of 49kts so "pretty fruity".
I will be honest and say that I did wimp out a little and used the Gaydial but I was 1 of only 2 boats in the race, the other being a Laser with a full rig sailed by probably the best all round sailor in the club.
Even thought i knew I would be discarding I decided to go out and practice in line with plan.
I hiked and then hiked a little more, I sailed off the wind although I had to remind myself to at some points and not to pinch for the windward mark.
I watched for the gusts, eased before them, hiked more and then trimmed the sail one I was in there to get the squirt of acceleration, when I timed this squirt with the wave I could feel I was on the money and I ploughed through the wave and came out the other side faster than I went in!!
The 1st lap was good, I kept the other Laser honest, ahead as we were going into the windward mark, but he got me on the mark rounding, downwind there was very little in it and when I saw him "chicken Gybe" I decided to follow suit and we nailed it in to the leaward mark then it was a bit fetchy back to the gate.
I made up water on the beat up to the 1st mark with the hike, ease, hike some more, trim technique but screwed up a tack and had a little dip, not a swim just felt my back get wet before I got the power back on.
On the reach across the water, I saw him go in hard and fast as a gust hit... this actually bent his top section sideways I later found out so he DNF'd!
I saw the gust closing in to me so stupidly eased the main, damn bugger blast, windward capsize with me out of the back of the boat which then rited itself and sailed off and then capsized.
I started to swim chasing a boat being blown away from em but then saw one of our trusty safety boats coming so waited, he dropped me back to beside my boat and I righted and sailed off, gybed at full speed, fetched to the gate to win the race................. that was until I returned to shore and was asked "was I in immediate danger?" no, or "was I ill?" - No., "was I injured" - No......... So, bugger DSQ'd for external assistance!!
However, the whole purpose of the training was sailing off the wind, ease, hike trim seemed to pay dividends and morally I won!!
Edited by Marcellus on Sunday 15th November 14:43
chrisga said:
Don't really know. Probably on the day, but remember you'll have to stick with whichever rig you choose both days if you want both days to add together for your final result. I'd have to check but pretty sure if you change on Sunday you'd be scored as two different entries.
No need to check, I know the answer to that one, I'll have to keep same rig all weekend to get a result..... It's touch and go at the moment; current forecast for the Saturday afternoon when we're doing 3 or 4 races so sailing for 4/5 hours is for 20 gusting 30 and then on Sunday for the 2 hour pursuit is 17 gusting 25 so whilst Radial may seem under powered for Sunday there'll be the fatigue from the Saturday to contend with.
I think I'll sleep well on Sunday
lol please don't think i'm an expert and I'm not slating your sailing, anyone out there on Saturday deserves a medal! Its been about 20 years since I sailed a laser properly so these are just observations that i'd try to work on in the 300 if it was me. Obviously it's difficult to see what you were doing overall on the video and these are just single snap shots in time so you may have been doing what I suggest most of the time and just not at the particular point the video was taken.....
At 1:36ish you are on the reach. Assuming its the top one and its tightish, the front edge of your sail appears to have no power in it. If you were near the beginning of the leg and not trying to get back up for the mark overpowered you need to try to keep it full and steer to the gusts at the same time. If you get pressure bear away but keep the power in the sail, then as the gust eases head back up. Because of the laser sheeting system it's difficult to sheet in and out on a reach quick enough so also try to steer. Bearing off in a gust is counter intuitive in something like a laser at first as youre always taught to head up into the wind in a gust but it can pay on a lot broader reaches. Try doing some sailing in boats with asymmetric spinnakers. You MUST bear away in gusts or you'll capsize and the same technique works in the 300 or laser downwind.
At 2:16 you are at the leeward mark. Ok there is another boat in irons on the mark and one to leeward of you so this may not be representative of your roundings but it looks like you lose a fair bit of ground at the mark as you don't round up immediately as you're still sheeting in. You've lost 10 boat lengths to windward right there. Go wide in tight out if you have to (but not wide enough to let the whole fleet get an overlap inside you of course).
Just after that there is a good shot of you tacking where a cat crosses behind you. You may be rushing because of the cat but it looks like you just stick the tiller hard over. Would you say this is a normal tack or did you try to speed it up because of the cat approaching on starboard? (BTW, it looks like you only just got away with that move, the cat could have had words if he had to duck your transom at all). Anyway, I was taught to steer into the tack positively so you get through the wind but with a slow and minimum amount of rudder movement. In my mind that has 2 benefits, as the boat steers through the wind it is drawing a larger arc and works you directly in to the face of the wind. The rudder being hard over also just acts as a big brake.
Like I said, I haven't sailed a Laser for a while so this may all be b0ll0cks of course but just what I noticed. Offer is still there for the B14 and you're welcome to take the 300 out if you fancy it. I reckon that will teach you more about trim and balance in one sail than a laser will in a whole season! It still teaches me and I must have had it for about 10 years now!
At 1:36ish you are on the reach. Assuming its the top one and its tightish, the front edge of your sail appears to have no power in it. If you were near the beginning of the leg and not trying to get back up for the mark overpowered you need to try to keep it full and steer to the gusts at the same time. If you get pressure bear away but keep the power in the sail, then as the gust eases head back up. Because of the laser sheeting system it's difficult to sheet in and out on a reach quick enough so also try to steer. Bearing off in a gust is counter intuitive in something like a laser at first as youre always taught to head up into the wind in a gust but it can pay on a lot broader reaches. Try doing some sailing in boats with asymmetric spinnakers. You MUST bear away in gusts or you'll capsize and the same technique works in the 300 or laser downwind.
At 2:16 you are at the leeward mark. Ok there is another boat in irons on the mark and one to leeward of you so this may not be representative of your roundings but it looks like you lose a fair bit of ground at the mark as you don't round up immediately as you're still sheeting in. You've lost 10 boat lengths to windward right there. Go wide in tight out if you have to (but not wide enough to let the whole fleet get an overlap inside you of course).
Just after that there is a good shot of you tacking where a cat crosses behind you. You may be rushing because of the cat but it looks like you just stick the tiller hard over. Would you say this is a normal tack or did you try to speed it up because of the cat approaching on starboard? (BTW, it looks like you only just got away with that move, the cat could have had words if he had to duck your transom at all). Anyway, I was taught to steer into the tack positively so you get through the wind but with a slow and minimum amount of rudder movement. In my mind that has 2 benefits, as the boat steers through the wind it is drawing a larger arc and works you directly in to the face of the wind. The rudder being hard over also just acts as a big brake.
Like I said, I haven't sailed a Laser for a while so this may all be b0ll0cks of course but just what I noticed. Offer is still there for the B14 and you're welcome to take the 300 out if you fancy it. I reckon that will teach you more about trim and balance in one sail than a laser will in a whole season! It still teaches me and I must have had it for about 10 years now!
Edited by chrisga on Thursday 26th November 08:19
Thanks Chris, there's an element that I do need to work on all of the things you pointed out!
With the reaching I think the sequence at around the 00:47 and 02:49 is more reflective of what I was trying to do but then the 00:01:36 is probably more reflective of what I usually end up doing, I think I was trying to "get high" and not trimming well enough!
Leeward mark rounding, tbh mine is crap, at best 50/50, sometimes I get it and sometimes I don't, and that one was particularly bad, in my defence; screaming reach, into a mark, Fireball coming through below me at speed, and then a bloody 800 coming toward me that was genuinely a wtf moment bearing away, to miss the 800 but not too much that I impeded the Fireball, no prep at all for teh rounding just look at how much kicker there isn't, usually my set up is when approaching the mark; kicker, centreboard, cunningham then outhaul and in wide out tight. BUt as you say pretty crap, and something I need to work on much more, this summer I went and practiced the bear away, next summer it'll be drills on leeward mark rounding!!
That tack, Andy and I did have a chat about it and agreed that on the water there were no issues but the footage seems to make it all seem very close, I'd say usually I try and "feed the tiller" in for the tack not push and hope, but I think that by that stage tiredness was coming in so technique slipping!!
Thanks for the offer on both the 300 and B14 I will more than likely take you up on both, I have a score to settle on the 300!
With the reaching I think the sequence at around the 00:47 and 02:49 is more reflective of what I was trying to do but then the 00:01:36 is probably more reflective of what I usually end up doing, I think I was trying to "get high" and not trimming well enough!
Leeward mark rounding, tbh mine is crap, at best 50/50, sometimes I get it and sometimes I don't, and that one was particularly bad, in my defence; screaming reach, into a mark, Fireball coming through below me at speed, and then a bloody 800 coming toward me that was genuinely a wtf moment bearing away, to miss the 800 but not too much that I impeded the Fireball, no prep at all for teh rounding just look at how much kicker there isn't, usually my set up is when approaching the mark; kicker, centreboard, cunningham then outhaul and in wide out tight. BUt as you say pretty crap, and something I need to work on much more, this summer I went and practiced the bear away, next summer it'll be drills on leeward mark rounding!!
That tack, Andy and I did have a chat about it and agreed that on the water there were no issues but the footage seems to make it all seem very close, I'd say usually I try and "feed the tiller" in for the tack not push and hope, but I think that by that stage tiredness was coming in so technique slipping!!
Thanks for the offer on both the 300 and B14 I will more than likely take you up on both, I have a score to settle on the 300!
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