Boeing P-8 Poseidons on the way

Boeing P-8 Poseidons on the way

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Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,031 posts

265 months

Monday 23rd November 2015
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I think that Japan also has restrictions on exporting arms - which would include military aircraft.

Elroy Blue

8,688 posts

192 months

Monday 23rd November 2015
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This has now been lifted by the Japanese Parliament. The P1 was very much for sale.

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,031 posts

265 months

Monday 23rd November 2015
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It's certainly an interesting aeroplane. Why did they go with four engines on what is a relatively small airframe?

wildcat45

8,073 posts

189 months

Monday 23rd November 2015
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Eric Mc said:
It's certainly an interesting aeroplane. Why did they go with four engines on what is a relatively small airframe?
Flexibility and potential redundancy. Nimrod had four engines and I seem to recall they could shut two down for when they were just hanging around. Fuel saving and extending the time over the task perhaps?

Dr Jekyll

23,820 posts

261 months

Monday 23rd November 2015
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aeropilot said:
Because HMG/MOD didn't want to do the new build - too expensive (even though the USA were very keen to buy Nimrod, providing that they were new build) instead of P-8......
The US certainly had a lot of respect for the Nimrod, but BAe couldn't find anyone in the US willing to build it so pulled out of the competition.

hidetheelephants

24,352 posts

193 months

Monday 23rd November 2015
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wildcat45 said:
Eric Mc said:
It's certainly an interesting aeroplane. Why did they go with four engines on what is a relatively small airframe?
Flexibility and potential redundancy. Nimrod had four engines and I seem to recall they could shut two down for when they were just hanging around. Fuel saving and extending the time over the task perhaps?
Definitely redundancy; you get a lot of bird life at ~500', an albatross or two into the compressor on a P8 and it may be early bathtime, with the Kawasaki you have the choice to stick around to prosecute whatever sub you're chasing.

ukaskew

10,642 posts

221 months

Monday 23rd November 2015
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The Kawasaki came to RIAT and apparently they were in talks with the MOD earlier in the year, so it was definitely on the table at some stage.

Ginetta G15 Girl

3,220 posts

184 months

Monday 23rd November 2015
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wildcat45 said:
Flexibility and potential redundancy. Nimrod had four engines and I seem to recall they could shut two down for when they were just hanging around. Fuel saving and extending the time over the task perhaps?
SOP on Nimrod was to shut down to 3 at top-of-drop into the operating area.

Shutting down to 2 was more problematic - there were 2 criteria that were looked at Crit(ical) Weight and Crit(ical) Alt(itude).

If you were below Crit Weight, you could happily shut down to 2 because the a/c had the performance to climb to a minimum of 1000 ft amsl if you lost a donk.

Crit Alt was used when there was a defined need to massively increase On-Task endurance (such as SAR tasks). In this case you stayed at, or above Crit Alt and shut down to 2. Crit Alt meant that you had time for 2x 'Air Assist Start' attempts (ie using high pressure air from the live engine) and 1x 'Windmill Start' attempt before you descended through 1000ft amsl.


Ginetta G15 Girl

3,220 posts

184 months

Monday 23rd November 2015
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hidetheelephants said:
Definitely redundancy; you get a lot of bird life at ~500'
Not off-shore you don't.

However, redundancy is good. Operating at LL over the Ogsplash I would want 4 engines.

Mojocvh

16,837 posts

262 months

Monday 23rd November 2015
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Eric Mc said:
Now being fixed. It was always assumed it would be a temporary situation - which is what has transpired.
Slight point of order, now is a relative term, there will still be a massive capability gap until they are in service.

Also 9. There's a lot of sea out there for 9.####

Now deploy 1/2 to the SA that's 7.

Japan plans to purchase 90 YES 90 P1's for their islands defence.....

.#### Bit like the number of AAR tankers now that camerons commandeered one for his own use....

mph1977

12,467 posts

168 months

Monday 23rd November 2015
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Mojocvh said:
Slight point of order, now is a relative term, there will still be a massive capability gap until they are in service.

Also 9. There's a lot of sea out there for 9.####

Now deploy 1/2 to the SA that's 7.

Japan plans to purchase 90 YES 90 P1's for their islands defence.....

.#### Bit like the number of AAR tankers now that camerons commandeered one for his own use....
Japan's needs for MPA are rather different, with N Korea and the PRC having 'facing' coasts ...


with regard to AAR - 8 RAF crewed Voyagers, 1 Air tanker crewed Voyager working for the RAF/ NATO QRA, plus the ability to reclaim the other 5 Voyagers as short notice

there is no requirement for any change in main deck fit for a voyager to function as AT or AAR ...



hidetheelephants

24,352 posts

193 months

Monday 23rd November 2015
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9 is ridiculous; the dozen-ish MR2s were busier than one-armed paper hangers prior to the scrapman calling. The idea 9 less capable aircraft are going to adequately fill the hole is comic.

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,031 posts

265 months

Monday 23rd November 2015
quotequote all
hidetheelephants said:
9 is ridiculous; the dozen-ish MR2s were busier than one-armed paper hangers prior to the scrapman calling. The idea 9 less capable aircraft are going to adequately fill the hole is comic.
The current Zero is not good also.

Simpo Two

85,422 posts

265 months

Monday 23rd November 2015
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Eric Mc said:
The current Zero is not good also.
Very manouverable though...

hidetheelephants

24,352 posts

193 months

Monday 23rd November 2015
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Eric Mc said:
hidetheelephants said:
9 is ridiculous; the dozen-ish MR2s were busier than one-armed paper hangers prior to the scrapman calling. The idea 9 less capable aircraft are going to adequately fill the hole is comic.
The current Zero is not good also.
True, but it displays either profound cynicism or flagrant incompetence; for a so-called Strategic Defence Review to order an inadequate number of MPA when the unsustainable operational tempo of a greater number of Nimrod MR2 lead directly to a preventable crash killing 14 aircrew. Given we have more need for maritime patrol than we did in 2010 with Putin indulging in a submarine-building pissing contest and just as many surveillance tasks in the middle east, it's not difficult to see history repeating itself.

anonymous-user

54 months

Monday 23rd November 2015
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Europa1 said:
It is frankly staggering that as an island nation we currently have no maritime patrol aircraft.
Ok, in a search and rescue role i can see the usefullness, but as marine warfare patrol aircraft? Er who are we going to be fighting where 9 aircraft will help?


The countries with a Navy big enough to enter our sovereign waters in anger are also big enough to swat 9 planes down without lifting more than a couple of fingers on a couple of buttons......

aeropilot

34,592 posts

227 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
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Eric Mc said:
I'm sure it will be involved in SAR work. The Aussies were using their P-8s in the hunt for MH370.
Aussie's haven't got any P-8's yet.....first one isn't due for delivery until next year.

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,031 posts

265 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
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I'm sure I saw one on the news reports. Maybe I was hallucinating. It might have been a US Navy one.

aeropilot

34,592 posts

227 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
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hidetheelephants said:
9 is ridiculous; the dozen-ish MR2s were busier than one-armed paper hangers prior to the scrapman calling. The idea 9 less capable aircraft are going to adequately fill the hole is comic.
And.......

Will 'our' P-8's be redesigned for AAR, or are we buying them 'as is' in spec, in which case, not only will we have less a/c than we had Nimrod's, but unlike Nimrod, we won't be able to AAR them either, as the P-8 is not probe n drogue fit, but boom fit as per most USA a/c.
Is RAF Voyager boom capable as well as probe n drogue...?

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,031 posts

265 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
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The Nimrod originally did not have air refueling capability - for the first dozen years or so of operations.