Private Jets? Any advice? Or experience?
Discussion
J4CKO said:
Er, I know Russians like drink but how could 5 people put away 50 grands worth in 4 hours without dying ?
Even top of the range vintages are like three grand, was it something really rare or just massive volume ?
Tbh it was not a one off they were semi regular clients.Even top of the range vintages are like three grand, was it something really rare or just massive volume ?
General idea would be 3 bottles La Tache 1990, 1 bottle Krug from the 80s, bottle of pre war cognac a bottle of top top end vodka. (The vintages are guessed)
We would usually get requests with little notice, so would often have to get the wine from hotels and restaurants. So instead of paying £3-5 for a bottle we would often be paying £wine list!
We also had a decent margin on this type of thing
I occasionally deliver high end wine for a very famous auction house, the record so far is £26000 for a single bottle .
Much goes as gifts to financial houses in the city ,frequently deliver to bonded wharehouses for forwarding to private yachts, most valuable was 40 mixed cases worth £400,000+ to a private residence with a drive that was 1 mile long .
£50k wine bill soon adds up with 100-200% mark up on cost .
Much goes as gifts to financial houses in the city ,frequently deliver to bonded wharehouses for forwarding to private yachts, most valuable was 40 mixed cases worth £400,000+ to a private residence with a drive that was 1 mile long .
£50k wine bill soon adds up with 100-200% mark up on cost .
nikaiyo2 said:
J4CKO said:
Er, I know Russians like drink but how could 5 people put away 50 grands worth in 4 hours without dying ?
Even top of the range vintages are like three grand, was it something really rare or just massive volume ?
Tbh it was not a one off they were semi regular clients.Even top of the range vintages are like three grand, was it something really rare or just massive volume ?
General idea would be 3 bottles La Tache 1990, 1 bottle Krug from the 80s, bottle of pre war cognac a bottle of top top end vodka. (The vintages are guessed)
We would usually get requests with little notice, so would often have to get the wine from hotels and restaurants. So instead of paying £3-5 for a bottle we would often be paying £wine list!
We also had a decent margin on this type of thing
J4CKO said:
nikaiyo2 said:
J4CKO said:
Er, I know Russians like drink but how could 5 people put away 50 grands worth in 4 hours without dying ?
Even top of the range vintages are like three grand, was it something really rare or just massive volume ?
Tbh it was not a one off they were semi regular clients.Even top of the range vintages are like three grand, was it something really rare or just massive volume ?
General idea would be 3 bottles La Tache 1990, 1 bottle Krug from the 80s, bottle of pre war cognac a bottle of top top end vodka. (The vintages are guessed)
We would usually get requests with little notice, so would often have to get the wine from hotels and restaurants. So instead of paying £3-5 for a bottle we would often be paying £wine list!
We also had a decent margin on this type of thing
If you have £200,000,000 in the bank why not
Soov535 said:
J4CKO said:
nikaiyo2 said:
J4CKO said:
Er, I know Russians like drink but how could 5 people put away 50 grands worth in 4 hours without dying ?
Even top of the range vintages are like three grand, was it something really rare or just massive volume ?
Tbh it was not a one off they were semi regular clients.Even top of the range vintages are like three grand, was it something really rare or just massive volume ?
General idea would be 3 bottles La Tache 1990, 1 bottle Krug from the 80s, bottle of pre war cognac a bottle of top top end vodka. (The vintages are guessed)
We would usually get requests with little notice, so would often have to get the wine from hotels and restaurants. So instead of paying £3-5 for a bottle we would often be paying £wine list!
We also had a decent margin on this type of thing
If you have £200,000,000 in the bank why not
ks to extract cash from rich people really isnt it.Same thing happens with Cars, Paintings, jewellery etc, they become a place to put money, its like a sort of extension of normal currency as it doesnt scale after a point, consumer goods kind of top out at a point so you need other things, you embellish, duplicate and buy things far in excess of what is needed.
I reckon I could drink a 5 grand glass of wine and think it was nice, equally it might not be, its a taste thing, it is crushed and fermented grapes and I bet if someone just stuck a £7.99 label on it and I drank it, it wouldn't really stand out other than "I would buy that again". but for them, spending that on booze is like me spending £20 at the offy.
That said, I would quite like a private jet, that must be fairly awesome, not really a helicopter as in a lot of cases they seem to have been invented mainly to prey on the wealthy, who have good food, good medical, bodyguards care etc and have no natural predators, so they buy a big flash whirlybird, and learn to use it to find hills, pylons and cranes. Aviation isnt really for those who are enthusiastic and have money, think you need to be super anal as well, so I would get a private jet and get pros to fly it.
...it's the classic "Law of Diminishing Returns" scenario - the last 10% increase in quality could cost you 1000% more.
Typically a business will set-up an Off-shore "Charter Company" in a tax-efficient country like the Caymans etc, borrow the funds to purchase the aircraft, which may be registered in either the "Tax Haven" or a country which is highly respected in terms of aircraft maintenance & crewing standards - hence often N-registered as the US allows tax deductions for business use of private a/c). The "Charter Operation" will of course be a loss-maker & therefore pay no tax.
The "Charter Company" my let the a/c on a limited basis & is likely to use a separate "Flight Services" company to provide flight & cabin crew, aircraft maintenance, hangarage, and market the aircraft to the charter market. The costs , both fixed & non-fixed payable to the "Flight Services" company are revenue expenses which are tax deductible for the "Charter Company" much like the loan payments for the a/c itself.
The "Charter Company" will probably be a wholly owned subsidiary of the substantive business which is the primary user of the aircraft - hence its losses come-off the parent company's bottom line & its recapitalisation will be treated as a revenue expense.
Basically, private jet ownership (for something decent like a G-650 etc) is often structured around a loss-making legal vehicle in a tax-efficient jurisdiction. The US, unlike many European countries does not impose any form of "Luxury Tax" on private a/c ownership/use for a business - indeed the expenses are fully tax deducible. Hence most light a/c in the US are owned by small businesses & that approach obviously scales to the top-end.
Typically a business will set-up an Off-shore "Charter Company" in a tax-efficient country like the Caymans etc, borrow the funds to purchase the aircraft, which may be registered in either the "Tax Haven" or a country which is highly respected in terms of aircraft maintenance & crewing standards - hence often N-registered as the US allows tax deductions for business use of private a/c). The "Charter Operation" will of course be a loss-maker & therefore pay no tax.
The "Charter Company" my let the a/c on a limited basis & is likely to use a separate "Flight Services" company to provide flight & cabin crew, aircraft maintenance, hangarage, and market the aircraft to the charter market. The costs , both fixed & non-fixed payable to the "Flight Services" company are revenue expenses which are tax deductible for the "Charter Company" much like the loan payments for the a/c itself.
The "Charter Company" will probably be a wholly owned subsidiary of the substantive business which is the primary user of the aircraft - hence its losses come-off the parent company's bottom line & its recapitalisation will be treated as a revenue expense.
Basically, private jet ownership (for something decent like a G-650 etc) is often structured around a loss-making legal vehicle in a tax-efficient jurisdiction. The US, unlike many European countries does not impose any form of "Luxury Tax" on private a/c ownership/use for a business - indeed the expenses are fully tax deducible. Hence most light a/c in the US are owned by small businesses & that approach obviously scales to the top-end.
Penguinracer said:
...it's the classic "Law of Diminishing Returns" scenario - the last 10% increase in quality could cost you 1000% more.
Typically a business will set-up an Off-shore "Charter Company" in a tax-efficient country like the Caymans etc, borrow the funds to purchase the aircraft, which may be registered in either the "Tax Haven" or a country which is highly respected in terms of aircraft maintenance & crewing standards - hence often N-registered as the US allows tax deductions for business use of private a/c). The "Charter Operation" will of course be a loss-maker & therefore pay no tax.
The "Charter Company" my let the a/c on a limited basis & is likely to use a separate "Flight Services" company to provide flight & cabin crew, aircraft maintenance, hangarage, and market the aircraft to the charter market. The costs , both fixed & non-fixed payable to the "Flight Services" company are revenue expenses which are tax deductible for the "Charter Company" much like the loan payments for the a/c itself.
The "Charter Company" will probably be a wholly owned subsidiary of the substantive business which is the primary user of the aircraft - hence its losses come-off the parent company's bottom line & its recapitalisation will be treated as a revenue expense.
Basically, private jet ownership (for something decent like a G-650 etc) is often structured around a loss-making legal vehicle in a tax-efficient jurisdiction. The US, unlike many European countries does not impose any form of "Luxury Tax" on private a/c ownership/use for a business - indeed the expenses are fully tax deducible. Hence most light a/c in the US are owned by small businesses & that approach obviously scales to the top-end.
Oddly the Russian AC I mentioned was a Victor Papa Charley (or is it Charlie? not sure never mind.) I think the number of Aircraft i used to work for/ with registered to the nation they were actually owned from could be counted on the fingers of one hand Typically a business will set-up an Off-shore "Charter Company" in a tax-efficient country like the Caymans etc, borrow the funds to purchase the aircraft, which may be registered in either the "Tax Haven" or a country which is highly respected in terms of aircraft maintenance & crewing standards - hence often N-registered as the US allows tax deductions for business use of private a/c). The "Charter Operation" will of course be a loss-maker & therefore pay no tax.
The "Charter Company" my let the a/c on a limited basis & is likely to use a separate "Flight Services" company to provide flight & cabin crew, aircraft maintenance, hangarage, and market the aircraft to the charter market. The costs , both fixed & non-fixed payable to the "Flight Services" company are revenue expenses which are tax deductible for the "Charter Company" much like the loan payments for the a/c itself.
The "Charter Company" will probably be a wholly owned subsidiary of the substantive business which is the primary user of the aircraft - hence its losses come-off the parent company's bottom line & its recapitalisation will be treated as a revenue expense.
Basically, private jet ownership (for something decent like a G-650 etc) is often structured around a loss-making legal vehicle in a tax-efficient jurisdiction. The US, unlike many European countries does not impose any form of "Luxury Tax" on private a/c ownership/use for a business - indeed the expenses are fully tax deducible. Hence most light a/c in the US are owned by small businesses & that approach obviously scales to the top-end.
Half of those were from the middle east countries that were in effect the family business of the people flying.On the fine wine thing its all b
ks isn't it, I think very very few people could tell the difference between a £30 bottle and a £300 let alone a £3000 bottle. I went to a reception in Geneva once, ran buy a charter company (one of the good ones) and they were serving some really high end vintage wines and champagnes, completely wasted on me, either that or they were BSing and it was £10 super market plonk, but I do doubt that!lambo_xx said:
Looking to see if anyone has any advice on where to look, whether it is websites, forums, companies etc with regards to private jets? Trying to learn more about the running costs on things like a Cessna Citation X and Gulfstream G550.
Thanks
Saw this topic on the forum and thought I would finally register as this is actually an area I have a good deal of experience in.Thanks
The costs associated with Owning and running a private jet can vary by a significant margin, and there are a wide variety of factors which can affect this. Some examples of these factors are the total utilization of the aircraft, size of aircraft, age of aircraft and type of aircraft, and the area of operation
it would also be prudent to work out if you would be looking to acquire an aircraft as an asset, or if a less flexible but more cost effective option would be suitable. If the latter is true then you could consider either a wet/dry lease or ad hoc chartering depending on the period the aircraft is required for.
I will drop you a PM with my details when I can (newly registered members need to wait 24 hours) and go into more depth if you need it.
I would just rent it when you want to use it. My girlfriend used to sell charter flights, and now sells maintenance contracts on private jets. The number of times some poor fker would have his $60m Falcon 7X left in some arse end of nowhere airfield because some tiny component had broken was shocking. Not always the same jet, but more often than not it sounded like a total pain in the dick.
ker would have his $60m Falcon 7X left in some arse end of nowhere airfield because some tiny component had broken was shocking. Not always the same jet, but more often than not it sounded like a total pain in the dick.nikaiyo2 said:
J4CKO said:
Er, I know Russians like drink but how could 5 people put away 50 grands worth in 4 hours without dying ?
Even top of the range vintages are like three grand, was it something really rare or just massive volume ?
Tbh it was not a one off they were semi regular clients.Even top of the range vintages are like three grand, was it something really rare or just massive volume ?
General idea would be 3 bottles La Tache 1990, 1 bottle Krug from the 80s, bottle of pre war cognac a bottle of top top end vodka. (The vintages are guessed)
We would usually get requests with little notice, so would often have to get the wine from hotels and restaurants. So instead of paying £3-5 for a bottle we would often be paying £wine list!
We also had a decent margin on this type of thing
https://hedonism.co.uk/product#!/krug-collection-m...
or a cheeky little early 19th century number, just £98k
https://hedonism.co.uk/product#!/yquem-1811
It's hilarious
I know someone who ran a GV - the costs are eye watering and unless you have a business big enough to absorb the costs/hassle (not saying you don't) it just becomes a massive problem in your life. Beyond the purchasing cost/financing you need a full team of 3 or 4 pilots, cabin crew and a good maintenance facility, you'll always feel ripped off as the costs involved are ridiculous (I know he was complaining that he had to have the two display screens changed as they'd 'timed out' at £90k each - even though they were absolutely fine, he wanted a coffee machine fitted but that was a high 5 figure sum), then when you get somewhere you end up putting the pilots and crew up, usually in the same 5* hotel as you're in. Also, when it goes wrong you end up back on commercial anyway. He ended up leasing it back through a company, TAG I believe, to take away some of the hassle, costs.
What are you using it for? A friend of my wife's owns a Piaggio P180 for the family to use to get around Texas and down to Mexico. I'd never come across one before but it's really impressive, 1,700 mile range, comfortable, can be used in small airfields plus can be used with just one pilot and they've had exceptional reliability, mainly as props are far easier and cheaper than jets.
http://robbreport.com/Aviation/Test-Flight-Piaggio...
What are you using it for? A friend of my wife's owns a Piaggio P180 for the family to use to get around Texas and down to Mexico. I'd never come across one before but it's really impressive, 1,700 mile range, comfortable, can be used in small airfields plus can be used with just one pilot and they've had exceptional reliability, mainly as props are far easier and cheaper than jets.
http://robbreport.com/Aviation/Test-Flight-Piaggio...
As an ATCO I have the pleasure of working dozens of these things every day and have met a fair few bizjet pilots and visited Gama at Farnborough even being allowed to have a poke around Acropolis' A319CJ and Gamas LJ's and an old Hawker before being shepherded back to reality with a bump.
Everyone I've ever spoken to says to charter, there was mention of a netjets card before I believe. One of the guys at work used to fly hawkers and he gave a ball park figure of 100+ hours a year to justify ownership and even then it's a risk as already mentioned.
As to which plane to buy obviously the Gulfstream is very pretty but I have a huge soft spot for Dassault Falcons of any kind. Anything that hammers along at 360kts indicated is fine by me. In addition a third engine is presumably advantageous regarding ETOPS although I'm sure someone with more up to date knowledge than me on this front will be along shortly. Global Express might be worth a look, no slouch and an impressive range?
Good luck with your decision making!
Everyone I've ever spoken to says to charter, there was mention of a netjets card before I believe. One of the guys at work used to fly hawkers and he gave a ball park figure of 100+ hours a year to justify ownership and even then it's a risk as already mentioned.
As to which plane to buy obviously the Gulfstream is very pretty but I have a huge soft spot for Dassault Falcons of any kind. Anything that hammers along at 360kts indicated is fine by me. In addition a third engine is presumably advantageous regarding ETOPS although I'm sure someone with more up to date knowledge than me on this front will be along shortly. Global Express might be worth a look, no slouch and an impressive range?
Good luck with your decision making!
I once spent a couple of weeks in Panama on business, on the first evening in the hotel bar I got chatting to a group of Americans, turns out they were a private jet crew. It transpired that the boss man was sailing his Yacht through the Panama Canal and they were sitting around waiting for him. The owner actually owned a private jet business, I asked why they had not flown back up to the USA to then use the jet for other business and make use of the hours. The answer, "this is his jet". So, they sat in the hotel bar for 2 weeks, took the plane up for one check flight in that time to stay current. We also took a drive out to the bay one day to see the owners yacht.......It was the size of Bournemouth.
Anyway, turns out running a private jet costs rather a lot of money, owning a fleet of them can make you a lot. Lots of tails of some of the trips the crew had flown with paying passengers such as hiring a jet for the day to fly from LA to Oregon for a round of golf at Bandon Dunes (well worth it in my eyes), around $250K for a day out.
Anyway, turns out running a private jet costs rather a lot of money, owning a fleet of them can make you a lot. Lots of tails of some of the trips the crew had flown with paying passengers such as hiring a jet for the day to fly from LA to Oregon for a round of golf at Bandon Dunes (well worth it in my eyes), around $250K for a day out.
Petrus1983 said:
I know someone who ran a GV - the costs are eye watering and unless you have a business big enough to absorb the costs/hassle (not saying you don't) it just becomes a massive problem in your life. Beyond the purchasing cost/financing you need a full team of 3 or 4 pilots, cabin crew and a good maintenance facility, you'll always feel ripped off as the costs involved are ridiculous (I know he was complaining that he had to have the two display screens changed as they'd 'timed out' at £90k each - even though they were absolutely fine, he wanted a coffee machine fitted but that was a high 5 figure sum), then when you get somewhere you end up putting the pilots and crew up, usually in the same 5* hotel as you're in. Also, when it goes wrong you end up back on commercial anyway. He ended up leasing it back through a company, TAG I believe, to take away some of the hassle, costs.
What are you using it for? A friend of my wife's owns a Piaggio P180 for the family to use to get around Texas and down to Mexico. I'd never come across one before but it's really impressive, 1,700 mile range, comfortable, can be used in small airfields plus can be used with just one pilot and they've had exceptional reliability, mainly as props are far easier and cheaper than jets.
http://robbreport.com/Aviation/Test-Flight-Piaggio...
Would you really want one pilot though? I sure as sWhat are you using it for? A friend of my wife's owns a Piaggio P180 for the family to use to get around Texas and down to Mexico. I'd never come across one before but it's really impressive, 1,700 mile range, comfortable, can be used in small airfields plus can be used with just one pilot and they've had exceptional reliability, mainly as props are far easier and cheaper than jets.
http://robbreport.com/Aviation/Test-Flight-Piaggio...
t wouldn't!GV's are awesome. 90k dollars sounds about right for a screen but they shouldn't run out of hours. Failure more like. They are getting old now sadly and surprisingly few sold. Not many more than 100iirc. The GIV and 550 have been way more popular. The Gulfstream product in general is the best in my opinion. Not quite as big interior as the Global is but its just a nicer place to be. You cannot beat the big windows.
G550 Rental cost wise, Did a quote for a friend of mine. 2 pax, London to Vancouver, sit on the ground for one week then fly back. Ballpark was £120-130k all in.
People buy rather than rent for many reasons such as security or availability but unless you are fabulously super rich or fly hundreds of hours a year its generally more sensible to rent.
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