RAF Puma - What's the point?
Discussion
I'm struggling to see where the Puma fits in to today's British military.
It's old, not particularly up there with the best, it's not used routinely on RN/RFA vessels.
With Chinook and Merlin , why keep Puma?
I know the Sea King 4 was old and knackered but Puma is nearly as old and money's recently been spent on improving the fleet. Would the cash not have been better spent on keeping some SK4s in service? They seem a far more useful machine.
During the Cold War, I get why Puma was in service, geared up to support troops in the European theatre.
How does the UK employ Puma these days considering most operations are far from home.
Also, wouldn't it have been better to replace it in the 1990s with something like Blackhawk? Or order more Merlins? Surely running fewer types of helo would be cheaper?
Money must be a factor.
Or am I totally missing the point? Does the Puma offer something unique that no other helo does?
It's old, not particularly up there with the best, it's not used routinely on RN/RFA vessels.
With Chinook and Merlin , why keep Puma?
I know the Sea King 4 was old and knackered but Puma is nearly as old and money's recently been spent on improving the fleet. Would the cash not have been better spent on keeping some SK4s in service? They seem a far more useful machine.
During the Cold War, I get why Puma was in service, geared up to support troops in the European theatre.
How does the UK employ Puma these days considering most operations are far from home.
Also, wouldn't it have been better to replace it in the 1990s with something like Blackhawk? Or order more Merlins? Surely running fewer types of helo would be cheaper?
Money must be a factor.
Or am I totally missing the point? Does the Puma offer something unique that no other helo does?
Crossflow Kid said:
Bit bigger than a Lynx, bit smaller than a Chinny, a lot less naval than a Sea King.
That's more or less what I'm thinking. 20 plus have been given "Trigger's broom" upgrades with new engines and avionics. It's no doubt made them more capable.
I get that they performed sterling service in Ulster and The Balkans.
Folding rotors and tail rather than just detachable would make them much more useful and the size you mention may even be an advantage on a warship. I know Chinook doesn't fold but that won't be a problem soon with the new carriers.
What's Puma's USP that's keeping them in service until the late '20s?
wildcat45 said:
That's more or less what I'm thinking.
20 plus have been given "Trigger's broom" upgrades with new engines and avionics. It's no doubt made them more capable.
I get that they performed sterling service in Ulster and The Balkans.
Folding rotors and tail rather than just detachable would make them much more useful and the size you mention may even be an advantage on a warship. I know Chinook doesn't fold but that won't be a problem soon with the new carriers.
What's Puma's USP that's keeping them in service until the late '20s?
That same service they provided in NI and FRY is still going on, pretty much the same but in sandy places.20 plus have been given "Trigger's broom" upgrades with new engines and avionics. It's no doubt made them more capable.
I get that they performed sterling service in Ulster and The Balkans.
Folding rotors and tail rather than just detachable would make them much more useful and the size you mention may even be an advantage on a warship. I know Chinook doesn't fold but that won't be a problem soon with the new carriers.
What's Puma's USP that's keeping them in service until the late '20s?
They can carry quite a bit, but still get in to places where others simply can't. Doors on both sides of the cabin make for very rapid egress too, yer know, if you wanted to say, storm a rooftop or something (
)and fast roping wasn't really an option?They'll never end up at sea by the way. Far too high a CoG to go anywhere near a pitching deck.
DMN said:
They should have bite the bullet years ago and swapped out Wessex, Sea King and Puma for Westland built Blackhawks.
One Helicopter with a global supply chain covering most roles the Army, Air Force and Navy need.
My logic agrees. Economies of scale, ease of replacement, training - the list goes on. One Helicopter with a global supply chain covering most roles the Army, Air Force and Navy need.
Though I recall the Westland Blackhawk had a few modifications. Who knows it could hav been a British export success like the Sea King was.
DMN said:
They should have bite the bullet years ago and swapped out Wessex, Sea King and Puma for Westland built Blackhawks.
One Helicopter with a global supply chain covering most roles the Army, Air Force and Navy need.
i wouldn't want anything from Westland, buy off the shelf it's cheaper. One Helicopter with a global supply chain covering most roles the Army, Air Force and Navy need.
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
A lot less Spam than a Black Hawk...
main point i think also it;s nowthe RAFs 'medium' lift heli as the Merlin fleet is all dark blue ( as the delivered to the RAF Merlins are now FAA with Commando Heli Force )
RAF operates Griffin, Puma and Chinook
CHF operates Merlin
'blue' FAA operates Lynx and Merlin
AAC operates Lynx and Apache
DHFS operates Squirrel and Griffin ( with squadrons nominally belong to aac, raf and faa)
Gazelle is hanging around in NI until PSNI stands up it;s full fleet of helis etc
there's an Aw109 on 32 sqn and various Dauphins knocking about AAC (reputedly for Hereford's use) and the FAA ( somethign to do with Thursday wars)
wildcat45 said:
DMN said:
They should have bite the bullet years ago and swapped out Wessex, Sea King and Puma for Westland built Blackhawks.
One Helicopter with a global supply chain covering most roles the Army, Air Force and Navy need.
My logic agrees. Economies of scale, ease of replacement, training - the list goes on. One Helicopter with a global supply chain covering most roles the Army, Air Force and Navy need.
Though I recall the Westland Blackhawk had a few modifications. Who knows it could hav been a British export success like the Sea King was.
Crossflow Kid said:
wildcat45 said:
DMN said:
They should have bite the bullet years ago and swapped out Wessex, Sea King and Puma for Westland built Blackhawks.
One Helicopter with a global supply chain covering most roles the Army, Air Force and Navy need.
My logic agrees. Economies of scale, ease of replacement, training - the list goes on. One Helicopter with a global supply chain covering most roles the Army, Air Force and Navy need.
Though I recall the Westland Blackhawk had a few modifications. Who knows it could hav been a British export success like the Sea King was.
How accurate is that? Seems ridiculous if true!
mph1977 said:
main point i think
also it;s nowthe RAFs 'medium' lift heli as the Merlin fleet is all dark blue ( as the delivered to the RAF Merlins are now FAA with Commando Heli Force )
RAF operates Griffin, Puma and Chinook
CHF operates Merlin
'blue' FAA operates Lynx and Merlin
AAC operates Lynx and Apache
DHFS operates Squirrel and Griffin ( with squadrons nominally belong to aac, raf and faa)
Gazelle is hanging around in NI until PSNI stands up it;s full fleet of helis etc
there's an Aw109 on 32 sqn and various Dauphins knocking about AAC (reputedly for Hereford's use) and the FAA ( somethign to do with Thursday wars)
Not forgetting DHFS operates AW139's at SARTUalso it;s nowthe RAFs 'medium' lift heli as the Merlin fleet is all dark blue ( as the delivered to the RAF Merlins are now FAA with Commando Heli Force )
RAF operates Griffin, Puma and Chinook
CHF operates Merlin
'blue' FAA operates Lynx and Merlin
AAC operates Lynx and Apache
DHFS operates Squirrel and Griffin ( with squadrons nominally belong to aac, raf and faa)
Gazelle is hanging around in NI until PSNI stands up it;s full fleet of helis etc
there's an Aw109 on 32 sqn and various Dauphins knocking about AAC (reputedly for Hereford's use) and the FAA ( somethign to do with Thursday wars)
DMN said:
They should have bite the bullet years ago and swapped out Wessex, Sea King and Puma for Westland built Blackhawks.
One Helicopter with a global supply chain covering most roles the Army, Air Force and Navy need.
A former Puma JENGO friend of mine told me that the main disadvantage of the Blackhawk, compared to a Puma was that you couldn't stand up in one, which actually made ingress and egress awkward for a fully knitted up section of troops.One Helicopter with a global supply chain covering most roles the Army, Air Force and Navy need.
On the flip side, the Puma had short legs but was quite quick. Good for Germany but perhaps not so good now..
Given that our forces are down sizing and under budget pressures I, too, am surprised that the Puma has been kept in service and upgraded. I thought there was a policy to reduce the number of fleet types in order to reduce the support overhead.
I would have also thought that in the age of Jointery that any helo that is difficult to deploy at sea, if required,should be on its way out by now.
Edited by andy97 on Tuesday 26th April 12:31
mph1977 said:
ecsrobin said:
Not forgetting DHFS operates AW139's at SARTU
i didn;t realise they did , the RAF bumph implies the Griffins at SARTU for used for SAR training ( as the HAR2 griffin is Night vision / hoist etc etc equipped )
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